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**Alex** · 03-19-2002, 09:02 AM

from Krishnamurti's teachings

“You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it.

“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices."

-Jiddu Krishnamurti

**Ryu (JKD?)** · 03-19-2002, 11:31 AM

and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

Then one can make the same argument about him. He's closing his mind off unconditionally to any other possibility.
It is very difficult to make general assumptions about things without having knowledge, understanding, and a cultured life in some way. All "truths" are not made equal no matter how much political correctness claims it so. Look in the realm of martial arts.
We have one man's "truth" that is pure BJJ and another man's "truth" is pure point karate. Who's "truth" is more correct when it comes to combat? Anyone who says "well it's the fighter not the style" is missing the point completely. There IS truth there. One truth has a better grasp on reality then the other. So to simply say there truth is not my truth might be okay, but don't expect those two truths to be equal when it comes to "prove" them.
You can say this about religion too. I agree that no religion has the monopoly on truth. It bothers me when some say they do. However again, we need to use our brains and knowledge and experience to make distinctions. Is the "truth" of a violent cult who kills people "equal" to the truth of a church who does its best to teach people to love, etc.?
Say one person's philosophical "truth" is raping little girls. Is his truth okay? Is it equal to another man's philosophical truth that you should not harm people unless there is no other choice?

Too many people don't use their noggins. They simply want an "all powerful" catch phrase or one quote philosophy that guides them throughout all of life. Doesn't happen.
The real meat of Bruce's philo is that you EXPERIENCE and RESEARCH truth. Don't simply quote Bruce and think now you know better than all religious people, philosophers, and martial artists because "Bruce said so." Find the cause of YOUR ignorance.
This isn't addressed to anyone in particular. Just making things a bit more complex because life is full of complexities. The only way to do away with complexity is to have knowledge, judgment, understanding, and culture. Without these things people simply "run away" from issues.

Being politically correct can become a disease to "truth" Remember that....

Ryu

**chinesecowboy** · 03-19-2002, 11:42 AM

Re: from Krishnamurti's teachings

Jiddu Krishnamurti's awesome. Got into his work in college, but then realized his teachings kind of contradicts itself.
"Truth" is a paradox. Once you put it in words, it's lost. Confusious or some other wisedude said "The truth cannot be said" or "Those who are wise, do not speak". I read this from Zen, "If you think you know, you don't." I love this stuff!

**Ryu (JKD?)** · 03-19-2002, 12:32 PM

So then if a dedicated, experienced, and licensed doctor thinks he knows about medicine he doesn't?

I love it too. The paradox of truth is that it's hard to find but easy to talk about.

Ryu

**Bau** · 03-19-2002, 03:53 PM

Totally dig that stuff too!!

**Alex** · 03-19-2002, 06:15 PM

Tibetan Buddhists believe that "The fundamental goal of all living things is to obtain happiness and avoid suffering"(-Dalai Lama)

Any thoughts on this?

**hornet** · 03-20-2002, 04:23 AM

Ignorance

Originally posted by Ryu (JKD?)

Too many people don't use their noggins. They simply want an "all powerful" catch phrase or one quote philosophy that guides them throughout all of life. Doesn't happen.
The real meat of Bruce's philo is that you EXPERIENCE and RESEARCH truth. Don't simply quote Bruce and think now you know better than all religious people, philosophers, and martial artists because "Bruce said so." Find the cause of YOUR ignorance.

You are right to many people do that and I just realized that I often do that myself.

But then I have a dilemma. Should I qoute Bruce? So that people may see a connection from what he was all about to what I am discussing and then be jugded as ignorant. Or should I not qoute him? And risk that people miss the point.

I pretty much agree with you.

Just interested in your view.

**sikal** · 03-20-2002, 08:07 AM

Re: Ignorance

Originally posted by hornet

You are right to many people do that and I just realized that I often do that myself.

But then I have a dilemma. Should I qoute Bruce? So that people may see a connection from what he was all about to what I am discussing and then be jugded as ignorant. Or should I not qoute him? And risk that people miss the point.

I pretty much agree with you.

Just interested in your view.

Personally, when I quote him (or, really, anyone) I also try to explain my personal understanding of the quote. In this way people see the connection I'm trying to make *and* they realize that I've actually given some thought to the subject.

A lot of people just throw the quotes out there as if they are gospel ... but when others bring up alternate arguments, these people have no real understanding so can't offer any support for what they meant when they used the quote.

Mike

**Alex** · 03-20-2002, 08:17 AM

Philosophy is generally a collection of statements based on observation. It is not intended to be used as a set of rules.

While many philosophical ideas may contain partial truths, none can contain the whole of the truth. This is because generally when you read a philosophical axiom, you are reading comments based on one indidvidual's observations. This individual's observations are formulated in their mind based upon reflections of their life's experiences. No one philosophical axiom can be blindly applied to everyones reality, because each of our experiences are different.

I am sure that many of you have read an axiom and said "Wow, that was deep." To you it contained a piece of the truth, based upon your accumulated experience. Further investigation may disclose a little more of the truth as it applies to that axiom, however you will discover that one observation cannot be applied like a blanket over all thinking. We refer to people who do this as narrow-minded.

Generally, these observations have value as observations, but should not be accepted as the truth, or applied as a general rule of life.

Remember this axiom: "No generalities are completely true, including this one."

-Alex

**sikal** · 03-20-2002, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Alex
Philosophy is generally a collection of statements based on observation. It is not intended to be used as a set of rules.

While many philosophical ideas may contain partial truths, none can contain the whole of the truth. This is because generally when you read a philosophical axiom, you are reading comments based on one indidvidual's observations. This individual's observations are formulated in their mind based upon reflections of their life's experiences. No one philosophical axiom can be blindly applied to everyones reality, because each of our experiences are different.

I am sure that many of you have read an axiom and said "Wow, that was deep." To you it contained a piece of the truth, based upon your accumulated experience. Further investigation may disclose a little more of the truth as it applies to that axiom, however you will discover that one observation cannot be applied like a blanket over all thinking. We refer to people who do this as narrow-minded.

Generally, these observations have value as observations, but should not be accepted as the truth, or applied as a general rule of life.

Remember this axiom: "No generalities are completely true, including this one."

-Alex

Or, as I like to put it: Truth is universal ... perception of truth is not.

There is one "absolute" truth ... but no one person can ever know it because we each run it through our individual filters and end up with our own truth. I feel this is true of martial arts, religion, history, etc.

Mike

**Alex** · 03-20-2002, 08:50 AM

You nailed it, Mike. Truth is always obscured by perception. To observe without hinderance of one's experience and opinions is a hard thing to do, and very few, if any, can. Including me, though I try!

**chinesecowboy** · 03-20-2002, 11:35 AM

How do we know there is an "absolute" truth, where it's pure and unblinded from our experiences/biases,etc... ? To say it's out there means that you or someone has obtained, realized, or experienced it. Maybe the "absolute" is just something man created and hopes to achieve, but in the end, it's just another "truth" that contains the same biases of the individual. Does that make any sense? In another words, how can rational human beings, who think, calculate, judge, and draw conclusions based on knowledge and personal experiences ever go BEYOND themselves and operate differently? You can be more knowledged, spiritual, and aware, but can one surpass their own physical/psychological/biological conditioning and "see" and "experience" something un-cloaded by the mind? I use to be really into this stuff, until I took a hit of acid. Not trying to condone nor condemn drugs, but THAT experience made everything "clear" at least temporarily. And PLEASE, no one make a comment like "Oh, drugs are bad" or "You were on drugs so that experience was tainted by chemicals", etc... Stay on the topic, please. BTW, it's nice to get into these discussions again

**sikal** · 03-20-2002, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by chinesecowboy
How do we know there is an "absolute" truth, where it's pure and unblinded from our experiences/biases,etc... ? To say it's out there means that you or someone has obtained, realized, or experienced it. Maybe the "absolute" is just something man created and hopes to achieve, but in the end, it's just another "truth" that contains the same biases of the individual. Does that make any sense? In another words, how can rational human beings, who think, calculate, judge, and draw conclusions based on knowledge and personal experiences ever go BEYOND themselves and operate differently? You can be more knowledged, spiritual, and aware, but can one surpass their own physical/psychological/biological conditioning and "see" and "experience" something un-cloaded by the mind? I use to be really into this stuff, until I took a hit of acid. Not trying to condone nor condemn drugs, but THAT experience made everything "clear" at least temporarily. And PLEASE, no one make a comment like "Oh, drugs are bad" or "You were on drugs so that experience was tainted by chemicals", etc... Stay on the topic, please. BTW, it's nice to get into these discussions again

OK ... it is *my belief* that in all things there is an "absolute" truth ... whether I can perceive it or not. I can't prove it ... but that's my opinion.

In some small ways, though, this principle can be seen. For instance, take any 10 people and have them watch a video tape. The video tape is an "absolute" truth (in a very microcosmic way). No matter how many times it's played it will always show the exact same thing from the exact same perspective. But the 10 people who watch it will each remember different aspects of it more clearly and, over time, their memory will emphasize those aspects and if you asked those 10 people about the video in a couple of years, you would likely swear that they had watched 10 completely different videos. In fact, if you show them the original video in a couple of years, they may think it's been changed even if it hasn't. They will have filtered this "absolute." Each of them will have their own perspective of the "absolute" truth represented by the contents of the video ... and each person's truth is valid and, in context, completely accurate. But it still won't be exactly what's on the video. I would guess that 1 of those 10 would come relatively close to an objective retention of what he/she'd seen ... maybe. Depends on the group.

Mike

**Ryu (JKD?)** · 03-20-2002, 01:53 PM

Awesome.

Mike and Alex make great points. And Mike, on a personal note, I agree 100% with your philo, and I love what you said about truth being universal but percieved in different ways. I feel that happens almost always.

About quoting Bruce... there's nothing wrong to quote someone, and you shouldn't be labeled ignorant when doing so. But just like was said make sure that you have given thought to the quote and know exactly why you are quoting it. I tend not to quote Bruce that much, but sometimes I do when I feel it's appropriate. That should be the thing. It's about your own knowledge.

And as far as universal truth goes, well to get right down to it, that's basically what every religion is trying to get to. They're trying to get OUT of our humanistic observations and experience what is total and beyond just this little world. That's not too easy

And many actually scoff at it too.
Look at it this way, all humans must eat to live. That's a universal truth of biology. All humans feel emotions (not including damage to the brain, etc.) that is universal truth of mentality.
All humans have to deal with death. That is universal truth for all of us.
Universal truth is out there. The laws of the universe will be the way they are whether or not we're here. We may never get out of our little human ways of seeing things... but to me the importance is not in actually getting there, but the journey of trying to see more. That's what has kept the human race going.

Ryu

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