A thought on truth.

[Alex]

And as far as universal truth goes, well to get right down to it, that's basically what every religion is trying to get to. They're trying to get OUT of our humanistic observations and experience what is total and beyond just this little world.

That may have been the original purpose of religion, but I'm afraid that many religions have become more about self-perpetuation, money, and power. The more members a particular religion has, the more voters it has, and hence more control over society. And we all know money=power in our society. While the members of a particular faith may have the best interest of society and their neighbours at heart, the party running the organization is concerned with recruiting new members.

Anyway, religion is NOT a subject we should prbably be getting into on a public forum.

[peter]

Hi !!

I think the ultimate truth is love. Think about it...does it not make sence ?
What are we without love ? I would dare say, less than animals, for even amongst them there is love. Witouth love there would be no real joy in life. We would just be persons with no care for other people. Only thinking of ourselves and our needs.
Without love there is no hope and no belief.
No belief because without love what would there be to believe in ??
perhaps nothing at all........
and without love where does hope come froom ??
Because what would we hope for ??
if you believe in a almighty creator then why do you think he would save you ? Or care for you, if not out of love ?
He certainly would not do so because he has noting better to do !!

To make this quite short ; love gives the .....possibility for belief, that gives room for hope.

Well, at leat this is the way the universe woorks as far as i can understand it.
Peter

PS; think it over and comment !!!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Alex, you're right about that (unfortunately, I'd say )
Too many religious people and organizations do that now... and it's not just a Christian thing either, but also Buddhist, Hindu, Muslum, etc. There are sects of ALL religions that have forgotten what the original message was... Oh well. There's still those who are sincere.

Peter,
that's a wonderful premise, but unfortunately hate seems to be a universal truth of humanity as well.
Hopefully, people will continue to strive to find what is right, and not get complacent in the "there is no right or wrong" fallacy. That's when the trouble starts. Unfortunately, what is "right" IS very hard to see sometimes, and biases and perceptions get into the way, making it seem like it's not there. To me, education, awareness, culture, and the ability to make sharp judgments guided by objectivity and compassion is key.

Hope I'm "right" LOL

Ryu

[Bau]

nice post Peter...

I 100% agree with you.....

Yes Ryu...sad but true.... hate does exist in all of us....but those who do live by it just need to be...well....LOVED!!!....soppy I know but hey...whatever...

[peter]

Peter,
that's a wonderful premise, but unfortunately hate seems to be a universal truth of humanity as well.

Thank you !

And yes....hate also seemes to be the universal truth of humanity, but it is not !!
It is only a deceit ( probably spelled that one wrong...)
Hate is a.....hm......kind of an alternative to love. Made to seem like it is a truth in its one right, but it is not. It is real, but not the universal truth.

. There are sects of ALL religions that have forgotten what the original message was... Oh well. There's still those who are sincere.

Just wanted to make a comment on this remark as well.
That they have forgotten what the original message was.....and ??
What was it.....? could it be anything other than unconditional love ??
People tend to make quite simple things quite complicated.
And we usually spend such a lot of time quarreling over little things, that we forget the original message.
That is love....from my point of view.
This is nicely illustrated in the story from the bible about the samaritan. A lot of people went past this wounded man ( a jew ), and nobody would help, because of small detailes. Not even priests from his own people.And when at last someone did help, it was the most unlikely man of them all. A samaritan ( enemy of the jews )
He did not bother wether the wounded man was of his people or not. Only that he was hurt, and that he could help him.

well, got to go.

Peter

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"What was it.....? could it be anything other than unconditional love ??"

Nope,
Sounds about right to me.
Though "unconditional love" itself can become decieving if not matched with experience, knowledge, and reason.

Ryu

[gungfuhero]

The only absolute truth is existence.

We are all like sailboats, drifting in a windless sea...

better find a way to get somewhere

[sikal]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
The only absolute truth is existence.

We are all like sailboats, drifting in a windless sea...

better find a way to get somewhere

Ah ... but how do we *know* that's an absolute truth? We could just be figments of a collective imagination which has no real existence.

Sorry ... couldn't resist :-)

But, really, even existence is perceived differently by different people. I, personally, would say that existence is no more or less an absolute truth than is gravity.

Mike

[peter]

Quote/ The only absolute truth is existence.

We are all like sailboats, drifting in a windless sea...

better find a way to get somewhere

Sorry, but do you really believe this yourself ???
That youre existence ( and others ) is the only real truth ??
That truth is that I am sitting her and typing this message ??
Well, it is true that I am sitting her and indeed typing this message as well, but I cannot agree........that the truth of the universe is my existence. or your existence for that matter. It would be like saying that " butterflies are the absolute truth. And why not ?? because butterflies are real, and we often see them. They are no lie. They are real and it is true.................

Please explain......hm.....funny that you should use such a metaphore as sailboats !!
The truth is we are not just drifting in a windless sea......there is someone willing to guide us if only we are willing to let him. But this does not mean that we are then forced in any specific direction, only that we are safe . But by this I cannot guaranty youre safety......what if.....say.....there is an island somewhere in that sea....and lets say you are unlucky and fall overboard.......perhaps you will drift ashore on the island, and will be a help for the people living there.
Or you might drown.......
Then you might say " hey, but where was the guy supposed to protect me......."
I believe that he has given the controll over the sea to the deceiver. And he wants you to fall overboard. But if you have agreed to let the creator steer youre boat, then you are saved anyway !

hm....perhaps a bit contradictive in the middle part, but I think the last bit summed up my point.........

Peter

And I do really want to hear more about the exisence theory....!!!!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Good job, guys.

Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Peter, I can tell you have a strong religious background (and from what it seems like, strongly Christian)
While you have good points, keep in mind the language you use directly relating to your religion can in a way be 'trigger' words to people who don't share your exact beliefs. Please keep in mind that there have been other people from other belief systems who have been saved from falling overboard as well.
I'm only saying that this shouldn't become a conversation attributed to one religion, etc. I agree with much of what your post says, I'm just saying that people (whether right, wrong, etc) may take offense to language like "him", "Deciever", etc. if attributed to absolute truth. There's nothing wrong with saying it like that in itself, but I personally think (and have seen) that these types of conversations go over much better when objectivity is emphasized more than individual religious beliefs.
You can talk about absolute truth in very realistic, and scientific terms.
Not saying you have to do that of course. Just be careful of turning it into a "religion vs. religion" thread.

Ryu

[Alex]

Arguing over religion is like arguing over who has the best invisible friend- it proves nothing, it solves nothing, and in the end, it means nothing.

[gungfuhero]

For me to even have this dream, I have to exist. Or better yet: that there is experiencing going on, and something cannot come from nothing, where is something is projected onto is called the mind, therfore I exist (not a great argument, but it's late). Whether the rest of you are figments of my imagination or automatons is really beyond what I can lay claim to as far as knowledge goes, but your existence seems to be a more simple explination than my being deceived.

As far as absolute truth goes, I know I exist and that there is a reality that exists.

I think that you're concerned with my lack of direction. Although I think it is true that we all share an innate lack of direction, it is up to every individual to cut his path. People can theorize a million different reasons why god does or doesn't exist, why he let's evil occur, whether there is a mind-body connection, what is the soul and what is identity, but there will always be a challenge. That is why I stick to the fact that I know that I exist. With that single fact comes the understanding that all of the beliefs I hold are choices I make and my responsibility. So yes, I do believe in an absolute reality, but how well one relates and responds to that reality is up to the individual.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Gungfuhero, you're a budding existentialist.

Ryu

[gungfuhero]

Thanks Ryu, as a matter of fact, I'm all about existentialism. Now it is time for me to sit in a dark corner and contemplate my own innate worthlessness .

I see that you're a martial artist with an identity crisis. Be happy. Out of crisis come great oppertunity.

Lisa Simpson: The chinese use the same word for crisis as they do for opporitunity.

Homer Simpson: Of course, crisitunity!!!


You can't argue with that. Really Ryu, those who aren't in some kind of crisis simply are to comfortable for their own good.