my opinion on jkd,and people.

[sikal]

Originally posted by J.K.

There are very few martial arts that cover all ranges of combat that is why blending different arts works so well.

Yup. And even those that *do* cover all ranges tend to put more emphasis on one or two ranges than on the rest (however you want to deliniate and count the ranges).

Mike

[wcskgh]

ignorant

i am not ignorant, jkd incorporated bjj, yes, but i will bet my life, that if you do jkd for six months,and someone else does only thai and bjj they will beat you. point being, that if you want to fight,and add more arts, you will be a jack of all trades,and master of none, and if you trained only one ground art and one stand up, you will be better at those 2 ranges, and i guarantee you will not be able to use your trapping range against a good grappler. i have trained in most jkd arts, i love them all. but you kept talking about fighting, how many jkd guys have done well in pride or ufc, how many traps have you seen, wheres all the guntings and destructions,and energy drills? nobody in jkd gets to a high enough level at any of these, to pull them off in a real nhb fight. eric paulson is an awesome jkd guy, i saw no kali, trapping, wing chun, etc in any of his fights. as far as any wing chun guys grappling, they are ignorant if they disregard the effectiveness of grappling. closed mindedness is the end of growth. if you were referring to william cheung and boztepe, emin picked william up and slammed him, and then got knee on stomache and chain punched williams head into submission. i have the tape. i have utmost respect for alot of you guys, but you simply sound as if you havent put any of this to the test with skilled guys. even on egan inoues tapes, he talks about how fascinated he was with burton richardsons jkd, and all that, then he saw what was show and what was real, and since then, burton has changed his game. i have high respect for burton. i love inosonto also, but when training in a class where you learn 10-15 techniques in an hour, you will not get highly skilled in them for a long time.

[wcskgh]

vunak article and my post

the vunak article summed it up,as far as what i was trying to say. see, paul trained four hours a day,and all week, and put his stuff to the test, many jkd guys dont train that much,and just do alot of arts,and alot of sparring. point is, unless you put the time in each art like paul did, your jkd is a collection of many techniques, not absorbing whats useful. also, i do disagree that wing chun is trapping, this is a myth, wing chun is explosiveness down an opponents center, sometimes an angled center, not just coming head on with someone. headbutts knees and elbows are in wing chun, the eyegouge in the second form, the 8 kicks include kness, the dummy covers some clinch to nullify knees, etc. wing chun trapping is only used against someone skilled enough to force a trap, like a disarm, you never look for a disarm. wing chun is not end all, either, but has all the aspects of kino mutai, but few people get to high levels in these arts, and half the guys teaching dont know the real deal.

[doubleouch]

You guys just don't get it! It is not about what art you train, or getting very good at one range or one art vs. another. It is simply about training against active resistance and testing your stuff with sparring. If you foccuss too much on arts you loose sight of the fact that most techniques aren't specific to one art. I once saw a video of Sifu Fong doing Wing Chun groundfighting that he learned back in Hong Kong in the 60's. It looked exactly like BJJ. My point is, focuss on what works and not where it came from. Test everything and you will know everything you need to know!

[J.K.]

ufc is a sport - your tools are limited. You don't see kali/kuntao/wingchun ect fighters in these compititions because they don't allow you to use the tools of that art. And almost everyone in Mixed martial arts cross trains. You will barely see someone who just studied one art. So, you my friend have missed the point again.

You can not evaluate hypothetical situations.
"that if you do jkd for six months,and someone else does only thai and bjj they will beat you. "You obviously have no idea what your talking about when it comes down to it.

As far as putting my skills to the test - I have had numerous confrontations in bars, concerts, and street. I came out a live and well in all of them. I've locked people, trapped people, destructed and much more. It sounds like you have trouble using the tools in various systems that's why you are putting them down. Just cause you can't apply your techniques doesn't mean they aren't effective.

Wing chun - doesn't use traps - are you OK? It says in your profile that you trained wing chun...Eye gouging, headbutts, knees...guess what my friend - thats trapping range. nobody sayed its strictly trapping but it is a close quarter art(trapping range).

"point is, unless you put the time in each art like paul did, your jkd is a collection of many techniques, not absorbing whats useful. " Most JKD schools have a specific day for a specific art. Monday - Kali(2hrs), tuesday - integrated grappling (3hrs), wednesday - standup(3hrs) ect......

Almost every martail art derived from another...its called evolution.

[PentjackSilat]

J.K. your wasting your time. As long as JKD, Kali, Silat, and Wing Chun don't stand up to the test of a one-on-one combat on a padded floor in a caged arena with a referee and 3 pages of rules, you'll never get him to agree.
Nevermind 400 years of brutal war with Spain. Nevermind dozens of Chinese warring factions. Developing an art to survive only makes in impractical. You have to make someone tapout so that the referee declares you the winner to prove practicality in today's world.

[J.K.]

PentjackSilat

could you imagine if they had cage matches WC vs Kali - no rules -weapons legal. I'd definetly pay for that.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Okay... people might disagree with me here. But here it goes.

First, I don't like the "UFC is a sport with limitations, etc." That leads to a lot of "I'll just eye boink him" and other such nonsense.
It is true that NHB is a sport. But it is a sport that throws the body into the athletic and traumatic aspect of a real fight. It is easy to sit and talk about "rules" etc. but as the StraightBlast gym says "be like water, just add dirt."
If you don't have the athleticism or knowledge that a NHB person has chances are you will probably not fair well against one in a real fight. Do you think a NHB fighter will fight you in speedos on the street? Do you think they can't eye gouge or use weapons like knives, guns, etc.?
I am not saying everyone has to be a cage fighter. I certainly am not nor do I care to be. But don't forget the training that these people do. In a real fight you have to be athletic, and you have to know what it feels like to fight the way NHB people do. That's just my opinion. That doesn't mean you have to fight in a cage...but you better spar full contact, with boxing, double legs, ground and pound, submission, etc. You learn fast what you can and can't do, and what you need to work on for reality.

Having said that, I do think people with different styles such as wing chun or kali can indeed fight for real, BUT their training has to be athletic and with resisting opponents. They have to be exposed to NHB type training. You've got to experience and go from there.
I don't think you have to master all styles in order to take from them...but you do have to spend some time to the ones you are doing. You can't go for 3 weeks to a BJJ school and say you know BJJ..... it's something you never stop learning.
I have been yelled at for what I'm about to say....
I don't like to use "trapping range" tools standing up...I prefer to use them on the ground (either mount or knee on stomach, etc.) This is what is working best for me, and I don't do a lot of what JKD/PFS people do.... I don't like straightblasting that much. I don't look to get the thai clinch to elbow, knee, or headbutt. I want to end a fight before it starts with a pre-emptive strike followed by combinations, OR I want to enter with boxing, clinch, and either push the guy into a wall to headbutt, knee, and elbow, or slam him on the ground to either ground and pound or stay on my feet and kick him in the head.
I knife spar, stick spar, use OC spray, etc.
I think the standing trapping range can be more effective before the fight starts (i.e. an encroachment..). I like ground and pound, but I also know I can't do that to everyone... so things like eye jabs etc are important to learn. What I don't think is that people should just learn eye jabs and not really care too much about how those "sport" NHB guys are training.....
You can learn a lot from them.

Ryu

[Jari]

Originally posted by J.K.
doubleooch and pentjacksilat - both made excellent points. If I studied karate - why should I learn all the forms when all i really want to be able to do is fight. Im better off learning the basics of the art and then sparring with people. At least then i will be able to identify my strengths and weeknesses. Kata will just show me - how bad my memory is.

No. Your post just shows how ignorant you are about karate. But I noticed you are american, so that is to be accepted. First of all, if you spar with karate techniques, it doesn't look like anything you do in a ring. Karate is not exchanging punches and kicks, finding for openings. But it will look like that if you only take the kicks and punches and start sparring.

Same goes for WingChun. Why don't you see anyone using WC punches in a kickboxing match. Because they don't work in a strike-exchange match.

You need to know the "dogma" or "doctrine" of the art. It is easy to mix and match arts like boxing, kickboxing, thaiboxing, modern karate and so on, because their doctrine is similar. They differ on techniques but are all designed for exchanging strikes. You dance around, look for openings, feint and test the opponent, when opportunity presents itself you strike and usually this opens some more opportunities - or he counters.

Wrestling, judo, bjj has different doctrine. They are not based on exchanging strikes, but on closing in, making it difficult for the opponent to strike at all and then sinking them. This is easily mixed with the strike-exchanging arts because they are separate areas and you don't have to mix the doctrines too much. When you are down grappling, you don't have to dance around and bob around punches.

As you can see, you cannot use a technique based on bjj doctrine (say, escape from mount) when you are in an area where you might use a thaiboxing technique. Theres a line between the areas where these doctrines work and don't work and so it is easy for you to learn them both and use the one on which turf you are on. The techniques of one doctrine won't work on the area of the other doctrine. You need "the basis" for the techniques to work.

Now let's see traditional karate. Or Wing Chun. They both have their own doctrine. The problem is that their doctrine is different than say, thai boxing, but operates in the same area. Unlike kickboxing, karate's doctrine is very different from thai boxing doctrine. They don't work together (at least not well). In karate, you don't dance (unless you are doing modern karate, which I already listed above in the same list as thai) at all. You have techniques that are meant to be used in a very different manner. Now, you can either start dancing around, looking for the openings the thai boxer has trained for - or you can start walking away and use your karate when being surprise attacked while you are trying to go home. But you cannot do them both! That is why they can't mix.

Same for WingChun, you can hardly mix it with karate or kickboxing because of differing doctrine. WingChun is not for exchanging punches. It has it's own "thing".

It is easy to mix Karate or WingChun with bjj though. For the same reason you can mix kickboxing with bjj. Their doctrines, even different, work on different areas so they don't overlap and confuse you.

So, back to my original point. If you don't know the basis the techniques of an art are based on, you can't use them. At least properly. You may be able to use some single thing like side kick from karate separately with thaiboxing stuff, but you can hardly say you were using karate. Karate would not have used the kick like that. And you would not have been able to make it work with karate doctrine because you didn't even know it. You took a single blow and used it with thai doctrine and thought you had learned something from karate. Not.

Sorry for the long post. I'm too tired to even go through it and make it more understandable, so I'll probably get flamed but so be it...

[Jari]

Originally posted by J.K.
It sounds like you have trouble using the tools in various systems that's why you are putting them down. Just cause you can't apply your techniques doesn't mean they aren't effective.

When one is having trouble making tools from a single art work, it is usually because he has no idea of the "doctrine" of the art, i.e. how the whole system is meant to be used.

Like my Wing Tsun instructor always says, "You have to have the concept together. If your concept breaks or leaks, so will your techniques based on that concept."

[J.K.]

JARI

I wasn't putting down karate - if it workS for you or anyone else - how can i deny that. I meant just to express the importance of the basics - if you ever fought you will no the importance of the basics. The basics are the foundation of any art. When you hit a road block in your training go back to the basics.

Yes, some arts blend better with eachother than others - agreed. One also has the option of exploring a individual art based on the realization that the art agrees with you. I am not trying to convert anyone or dissued anyone from only studying one art - im all for it -just be true to yourself and you will succeed no matter what medium you choose. Its your path, your destiney and only you will be able to tell if your training is working for you.

But I will say that for those of you that think Junfan is a bogus system is just like saying karate sux, bjj is only good for sport. Believe me this art has evolved into something beutiful. When trained under the right teacher, this art will prove to be practical. I am studying under a teacher that has full instructorship under Dan Insosanto, Paul Vunak, Larry Hartsell, and Joe Rossi. He has also studied many other arts and has achieved a high status. My teacher has devoted his life to martail arts and has a strong JKD back ground as well as many other arts. Knowledge is truth. He has a profound understanding of many systems. So you cant deny the fact that he has something to offer. Any person from any system who devotes a life time studying MA will have something to offer. So to say that your waisting your time because the person hasn't learned the entire system - i would have to disagree. Studying what you wanna study - explore different arts, borrow from them and find your way.

In modern times everyone is crosstraining - we are living in the information age - take advantage of it. Way back when warriors didn't have this luxary. The followed a system inherrent to their culture for survival. They would go to war with other cultures and the victor would be the one whos planning/training was superior. Now you can simultaneously study two systems that may have been at war with eachother way back when. Do what is right for you but keep an open mind for others.

Don't try to complicate fighting - this will hinder your learning of any self defense system. keep it simply. The more complex you make something the less practical it becomes. People try to make the study of MA something esoteric/mystical - there is no magic here - just blood, sweat and hard work.

I didn't appreciate the dig on the american part - look around my friend, We are a global super power and I am proud to be American.

RYU -I think that NHB fighting is excellant and has really done a lot for MA. These guys are highly trained athletes for whom I have a ton of respect for. I think all MA should test there skills in the ring - its good for self observation. I was just pointing out the fact that some martial arts don't really lend themselves to rink - at least not in this country.

[doubleouch]

Silat, I think you are being a little unfair. The point is how will you know if your techniques work? Centuries of war and all that are great but did you see any of this war? Do you know what techniques they used? How they used them? The only way I know to determine if techniques work is to test them in sparring. For techniques that are too "deadly" to spar you may be able to get a bit creative in finding ways to spar them, but most like sticking your finger in a guys eye don't really need to be trained. If you can time a good jab, you can stick your finger in someone's eye. Anyone who trains NHB will tell you that in a streetfight they will simply add dirty fighting(biting, elbow, eye gouge etc.) They already have the conditioning, the combat experience, the timing etc. Silat, Wing Chun and all traditional arts have fantastic techniques that work great! I don't argue that. I think their training methods are sometimes lacking. Many don't test their techniques enough.
If you can't beat someone when there is a referee to control the action, a padded floor, time limits, weight classes etc. What makes you think you can beat them when there are no rules?

[doubleouch]

What is your end goal? To learn the essence of an art or to learn to fight? If you want to learn to fight then fight. If you want to learn the essence of an art then go study for 30 years! You will probably get some good stuff, but you will also get some obsolete stuff and some stuff that has nothing to do with fighting.

So, back to my original point. If you don't know the basis the techniques of an art are based on, you can't use them. At least properly. You may be able to use some single thing like side kick from karate separately with thaiboxing stuff, but you can hardly say you were using kara

Again you miss my point. I know I'm using the technique properly because I test it to make sure. If I twist my partners arm and it hurts then I really don't care if my stance is not correct according to the doctrine of Wing Chun etc.
Real crosstraining is not combining arts it is learning to fight from a variety of situations and ranges using whatever works from those situations and ranges. If it works it works! I don't care where it came from, nor do I care to learn the dogma of the art that it came from. I have used some Wing Chun techniques very successfully and I know rats ass about Wing Chun. I used them and they worked. Thats all I know and all I need to know.

Good Discussion!

[PentjackSilat]

I wish to make my point of view clear. American Karate sucks! Now, go to Okinawa and train there, and you have the real system. The system that hasn't been watered down for an American audience. Correct me if I am wrong, but this theory comes from a reliable source. The essence of Karate, as I understand it, is to annihilate your oppenent with one decisive blow. Real Karatekas harden their bodies with Makiwara boards, stone and steel. The theory is that two freight trains will collide. The question is which one is stronger. The stronger one can either deflect the first blow and crush the opponent, or launch such a devastatingly powerful attack that it will kill, mame, and destroy whatever is in its way. They don't dance around because they set themselves in one spot, and explode.
Thai boxing has the theory that everything is done with as much power as possible. But they don't rely on one hit as the end all. The are lighter on their feet, but certainly don't dance around like boxers. They walk in ,clash, and give multiple full power blows until someone falls or they get separated. If separated, they then walk into each other again. The reason they are lighter on their feet is not because they want to be light on their feet. It is because they stand straight up instead taking a low power posture like Karate. The reason they stand up is because they want to keep all their limbs in close so that their leg isn't sticking out infront of them to be used as a target.

[PentjackSilat]

Now, Karate doesn't care about sticking their leg out there because the second someone comes in, their theory is that in that first exchange someone is dead.
Thaiboxers don't try and kill you with one blow, nor is their entire art presupposed on that happening.
So, can you mix Karate with Thaiboxing? Ofcourse you can! If you move in and don't kill them with your first blow, then you switch from your Karate mentality to your Thaiboxing mentality. Once you two separate and you have to crash in again, you go back to your Karate mentality for that. Then if you fall, you go into your BJJ Silat mentality until 3 of his friends come and you then go into your Olympic 100 meter sprint mentality.