Giving up on JKD

[Aaron]

A few years ago, I took a 2 day IPTP with with PFS. It was awesome. I didn't actually realize how much of a genius Paul Vunak was until after I started training in BJJ. I quit shortly after I started because of an erratic work schedule, excessive cost, and because it was sport BJJ (90% sport, 10% street), instead of PFS groundfighting (100% street). The more I hit the mat, the more I realized how undesirable it was to train that way for a street encounter (although ground fighting is crucial, it wasn't very street oriented). Although I had many, many more hours on the mat than I did with the IPTP, when I finally did get into a barfight recently, I reverted back to my RAT tranining. A guy punched me, and I destroyed his fist with an elbow destruction. No straight blast, no HKE, just an elbow destruction. That's all it took. And definetly no BJJ, lol. I think BJJ is basically a good art, but look at how much more simple the elbow destruction was. BJJ (and the cheating stuff) should be used as a backup, as Paul Vunak so clearly recommends.

Anyway, I recently attended 2 JKD schools. Well actually I attended one and called the other (the other guy was on the same program as the first one). I told the instructors that I had taken the RAT program, and would like to train it if possible. They said their program is very similar, as they had trained under Dan Inosanto, as did Paul Vunak. Anyway, I sat through the class and what I saw was NOWHERE NEAR what RAT is, not even by a longshot. He had new students working hand trapping drills before they were working elbow destructions. They were working intracate techniques before HKE. I pointed this out to him, and the difference between his stuff and RAT, and he said that Paul just works the streetfighting aspect of JKD, not the art itself. Isn't JKD all about the street? I pointed this out to him, and he said he thinks there is a PFS guy in a neighboring city, (in other words, "I don't think you would like what we do here") but as it turns out, there is not . There wasn't one straight blast, not one headbutt, knee, or elbow. No knee or elbow destructions. Going by what I saw, I would have to train for 5 years to learn what I did in 2 days of RAT training.

As it turns out, there aren't any PFS people in my state (MI) that I can find, and it seems like non PFS JKD is simply not combat oriented. Or maybe it is, if you train for 5 years. So, as a result, I am giving up on JKD...

Thanks for listening, Aaron

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Enjoying PFS hardly sounds like "quitting JKD"

As far as the RAT system goes, it's a good system, but there are many good systems out there. Do a little research and experience. I personally don't like the straight blast and plumm position as much as I do a body lock slam and some ground and pound from mount or knee on stomach. There's lots of street-oriented BJJ schools out there.

Sometimes the straight blast works, sometimes it doesn't. Just because someone doesn't focus on it as much doesn't mean they can't fight.

Ryu

[Hapkidodude]

Aaron , you have to take in context what a 2 day IPTP is. It is a "crash course". If training a martial art is what you are looking to do than look for a place that trains you with good techniques, has a good curiculum, and helps you develop good fighting skills. If another IPTP is what you are looking for than try taking some seminars. An IPTP is basically a seminar. If the instructor that you talked with was trained by Guro Inosanto and is certified, he probably can teach you alot of very good fighting skills and techniques. Techniques can be learned and memorized. Skills must be developed through training. Good luck whatever your decision is.

[Aaron]

Hey guys, thanks for your replies. It's somewhat encouraging. The thing that is frustrating for me is that there aren't any realistic schools nearby. PFS is the best thing I've found, but I obvioulsly can't fly out to CA and pay Paul Vunak to train with me everytime I want to train, lol. There is a Krav Maga school nearby, and I'm thinking about giving that a try. It seems somewhat similar to what I'm looking for.

Ryu, I've seen many of your posts and you seem to have the same interests in MA that I do. Have you trained with Paul Vuank or any of his students? I really think that he is the cutting edge, at least when it comes to street combat. If you have trained with him, how long ago was it? And how did you feel about it? Also, by any chance have you given Krav Maga a try? I'm reluctant to try it because it seems more self defense oriented (as in defending against grabs, etc) than street fighting oriented.


Thanks for listening, Aaron

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Hi Aaron, sorry for my late reply.

Yes I have trained with Paul Vunak as well as Thom Cruse and other PFS instructors over the years. (however it's been a long time since I've trained with any of them...and put more energy into judo schools and private grappling with headgear and strikes, etc.)
I actually recieved a phase 1 instructorship from Paul Vunak on june 6 1998. That was a while ago, but the IPTP I took from Paul was extremely motivating, fun, and an eye opener. I had trained in PFS for a couple years before my training with Paul, but I would say that Paul's training was the best out of PFS
We sparred both standing, on the ground, with weapons, etc. (I actually got a black shoulder from catching an escrima stick with it at about 70 MPH )
Paul is a straightforward individual, sincere, and is open and easy to talk to. He'll probably take you out to lunch and pay if you train with him too. He treats you like a "team member" and not a "student".

I hope to train with Paul again in the future, because it has been a number of years since I have.
I've never tried Krav Maga But give it a try if it's close. I've heard mixed things about it, but for the most part it looks pretty effective.

Ryu

[Holdfast]

Hey Aaron, what part of Michigan are you in?

[Aaron]

Hey Ryu, thanks for your response. So you don't like Vunak's method of going for trapping range and using HKE? I also like the idea of going for the ground and pound method that you described. It's just that to me it seems like it would be more difficult to do to someone much larger than yourself, at least in my opinion. I don't actively train right now, so you would probably know better than me. Let me ask you, when you go for a clinch, do you first use interceptions/destructions, or do you use something else? I've also wondered about simply rushing a person into something that won't move (wall, car, etc), and firing off HKE from that position. True, it won't have as much power as if you had your hands around the back of his neck, but it seems a lot more simple. He will probably drop to the ground just to escape the barrage of HKE...Have you tried this yet and if so, how did it work?


Holdfast, I live in the Downriver area, near Monroe.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"I've also wondered about simply rushing a person into something that won't move (wall, car, etc), and firing off HKE from that position. "
This can actually be pretty effective, and is a strategy that Mario Sperry teaches as well. I've practiced it a few times, and have gotten different reactions. Some will just cover up and give you an easy time, other people with more skill will try to lock you up, manuever themselves away, etc.

It's not that I think the RAT program is ineffective. On the contrary, I have used it on many people, and have known people it's worked very well for too. I've had.....mmm "less resistence" from people when I clinch, slam, and ground pound ala Ray Cooper or Vitor Belfort. People seem to "freeze" more when they suddenly get dropped and blitzkrieged with headbutts, elbows, fists, and feet. People tend to want to fight back more when you grab their neck and such, but when they're on the ground there seems to be a more "panic" reaction where they naturally just cover up. HOWEVER, just like anything else there are people who can deal with this barrage just fine, and can use grappling skill to defend it. So nothing is fool proof.
I say train all of them. Your RAT program has worked for you already, so don't discard it. Try out some ground and pound with training partners (but be careful because it can be VERY damaging)
The safety measures you should take is
1.using gloves and face shields
2. communicating with your partner in order to know how hard is "hard enough."
3. being aware of how your partner is doing, and how much power you are using.

Ground and Pound is DANGEROUS if you're not careful. It can prove fatal.

For clinching I have done it after destructions and interceptions, but have also clinched after feints and low line attacks.

Train hard.
Ryu

[Aaron]

Hey Ryu, thanks for your reply. I see the point you are making when you say that a person has less will to fight when they are taken off their feet and slammed into the ground. That alone can end most fights, not to mention the strikes that will soon follow. Is there a certain type of takedown that you usually use (i.e. the least likely type to fail in combat)? Also, how do you feel about trying a takedown on a much larger opponent?

Often, I will "size up" a person, imagining what I would do if I got into a fight with him. I usually think about a clinch, with a leghook, to take him down backwards. But if he is somewhat large, it seems like it might be difficult to get a solid hold on him long enough to get the takedown (I don't want to go round and round with him before hitting the ground). That's when I really start to see the point that Vunak has about just entering and trying to finish with HKE, while still standing.

What's your take on this?

Thanks for listening, Aaron

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Hey Aaron,
Well unfortunately a large individual can give you the same amount of trouble if you try to hang on to his neck too. Clinching at all with a larger stronger opponent can be dangerous if your skill level doesn't exceed his. But I've noticed that the leg hook you're talking about does work well even against bigger guys. I've used low singles, and the leg sweep from the back to take down heavier guys as well. What I usually use most often is a bodylock drop (in judo called ushiro goshi). In judo classes I could pick up and drop guys who outweighed me by almost 50-60 pounds, but my frame is rather well built for that kind of move (5'8, 180 pounds with pretty muscular chest, shoulders, and thighs)
There's no such thing as a "fail proof" move in a fight. They just don't exist. But I would say "high precentage takedowns" would be the low single, the bodylock, the leg hook, and that back sweep.
You're absolutely right though that you don't want to just rush into a big guy and attempt to take him down. If he turns out to be a 12 year veteran wrestler you're in for a painful night...

But the same argument can be made for trying to straight blast and HKE a large brute as well. If he turns out to be a 12 year Muay Thai veteran you're in for a painful night. Granted these kinds of opponents are a rarity, I still think you should train for them in mind. You've got to know your weaknesses and strengths for any RAT program (standing or on the ground) Is your blast powerful enough to really cause damage, or will it just make someone angry? Have you constantly sparred your neck clinch and HKE with someone bigger and stronger? With skill? With grappling skill?

Unlike some people, I don't like to think any kind of rapid assault tactics (whether Paul's or my own modified version) is a lock on victory in any situation. There's some people who will drop like a sack of bricks.....others who will just stand there while you blast, grab you and slam you on the concrete. Someone out there can definitely stiff arm my clinch perfectly and drop me with a huge right hand too. There's so many tough people out there. It's actually quite humbling to think about it. However, the key is training your tactics against live, resisting opponents. Paul's RAT program is great. I really do think that. BUT you have to train it realistically. Same goes for ground and pound, clinching, or anything else.

And....... sometimes there are people who are just simply better, bigger, and stronger. No matter how hard you train.
Remember too that you don't always have to go toe to toe with a raging behemoth. Weapons are great equalizers too such as knives, OC, sticks, projectiles, guns, etc.

Hope that helps. Sorry for the rather long post.

Ryu

[Fighter]

Tip

You all just have to remember that there is always someone bigger, better, stringer etc, AND then train more. ALWAYS try to improve yourself because if you slack of even for a second sombody out there is training to KILL you.......