Knife

[William]

This thread is not directed at anyone in particular. It's just that I have seen a lot of misconceptions about dealing with a blade showing up in different forums and felt I should throw this out for people to consider.

IMHO, one of the many problems that many martial artists face is learning knife techniques from instructors that don’t really understand the realities of dealing with someone with a blade. I have to admit that in previous arts that I had studied (before I got into the Filipino arts and a couple of real life situations) 98% of the knife disarms and counters that were taught were unrealistic (to be nice) to say the least. Even deadly if you happen to be facing someone who really knows how to use a blade.

Example:

I recently met a person who has been an instructor for 20+ years in an art that you would all be very familiar with (I will not name the art or the person). He is very good at what he does hand to hand. He had developed his own set of knife disarms and counters that he taught to his students. About 8-9 years ago one of his better students was killed in a knife fight in a bar. He felt somehow responsible for his students death (whether he was or not …?) and quit teaching his blade techniques. About 4 years ago he totally revised his techniques (he felt for the better) and started teaching the blade again. About two years ago, one of my former training partners started working in the same company where this instructor works. They started sparring regularly on their lunch breaks and comparing notes. Guess what? When they started doing blade work, most of his techniques failed, taking kill shots or nasty slashes to vital points on his way in. One of the differences was that he was used to practicing the old --- person one thrusts or slashes and freezes. Person two works his technique. Once he tried in a flowing manner where the opponent isn’t going to freeze for you but instead is going to flow and try to take you out… a whole new world was opened up to him.
The point of my rambling here is that it took a lot for this guy to realize how dangerous dealing with a blade wielding person can be. Even after the death of a student, he still didn’t quite get it. I only bring this up because it troubles me to see some of this kind of mentality showing up here. It’s just that television and movies always portray knife fighting in an unrealistic manner, which many people see and believe to be true. There are also (IMHO) a lot of instructors out there who teach blade work who really have no business doing so. In essence they are teaching students how to kill themselves.
Take time to really look at and question any blade technique you have been taught (or came up with yourself). Work it in real time with someone who is of equal or greater abilities than your self and objectively evaluate how effective it really is. Consider a slash or a stab a kill shot and try again. Try it squaring off. Try it with your partner in your face as if he is coming up to ask you for a cigarette and suddenly whips out a blade and tries to stab you when you are toe to toe.

Consider the following:
A sharp knife will cut through the skin as easily as it will through a hot dog. Many arteries and tendons are just below the skin. If a major artery is cut, you could bleed to death (suffocate) in a matter of seconds. If a tendon is cut, that limb/appendage is rendered useless. And in a REAL KNIFE FIGHT, the winner is the last person to die.

Food for thought.

William

[doubleouch]

Great post William. I have avoided the study of the blade for just the reasons you outlined. In fact most fillipino knife experts that I have talked to say that they would never get into a knife fight. They would run! By the way, where in Oregon are you? I'm in Portland, straightblastgym.com

[William]

Hi doubleouch.

Thanks. And I agree, if at all possible, run like heck and get the **** out of there. Zone and get things between you and your attacker. Throw things at them, knock things down in front of them on your way out.

Yes I live near Portland, in the Beaverton area.

William

[Brokenmace]

You're all perfectly right. Here's the thing:

While I totally agree that you should run (preferrably), negotiate (a weak solution, but better than being cut), or equalize/overmatch (preferrably overmatch -- with a chair, gun etc.), these are not always possible.

A person in currently-bad health, such as a sick man or a man with a cast, doesn't have the option to run. A person who has not yet overcome severe asthma (and who might never), cannot outrun a madman -- especially on a lonely interstate highway at 5am. This situation is more than plausible. I don't need to go on about hitchickers.

It's possible (not at all likely) to come through a knife fight unscathed, it's just not wise to try. If you have the option . . .

But the only way you are going to disarm a knife without a knife is to keep your heartrate under 145 bpm. If you don't, you'll lose fine motor control (your fingers). And if you do decide to disarm, it has to be within 10 seconds. After that, the unused adrenaline will start to wrack your body with the shakes. Then you'll have to run, asthma or no.

After all that, you have to accept that you'll probably get cut, but if you know what you are doing, the chances of it being a critical cut are reduced. While you'll still go into shock, it's much easier to survive a cut on the back of the forearm or shoulder than on the inside! Most folks die from sucking wounds to the lungs and neck wounds. Remember, we're also talking about the reality of which targets are most common.

Not many inexperienced fighters go for the inner arm! There's a reason all your major veins and arteries face your heart. When you go fetal, none of the major veins are exposed. It is how our ancestors escaped injury when running wouldn't do. It's one (not the only) reason why being in fetal position when a wild bear is threatening you is better than sitting back.

Small, quick motions, employing both arms, are said to be the most effective for disarms. Large motions relying on one hand are basically doomed to failure. I've performed many disarms on skilled opponents using chalk without getting markered. (Before you s******, these were training knives with the whole edge chalked) This was all done with resistance and at odd angles. The most consistantly effective was to grab the arm with both hands and pull the opponent into a headbutt, disarming against his own leg. The next best thing is to break the arm after the headbutt.

You have to do what you have to do. If I can't run (not very good, actually) then I will stand my ground, overmatch him if I can, or disarm. I'd rather not, but hey . . .

Respect.

[phillyman]

William

Hey question i know you dont want to name any names but was it a filipino art the instructor was teaching? And was it a knife art something similiar to say sayoc kali.

[knifer]

Knife?

What do you know about knifes?

A knife is an offensive tool. You use it on a guy who does not expect it to be pulled out. In the elevator, or like in Scarface.
So always be aware of your location, and never piss anybody off.

You do not pull out a knife like in Michale Jackson's Beat It Video and start dancing.

Besides, any good knife style is no different than empty hands technique.

[Brokenmace]

"Besides, any good knife style is no different than empty hands technique." -- knifer

Spoken like a true kalista . . .

All my previous points still stand. Problem with some Kali drills (and this is why you need a good instructor) is that they subconsciously condition you to go to medium/short range, even if you have a knife! You don't have a choice if you can't run and don't have a knife. Most times when your attacker is in front of you (read: you aren't being shanked from behind), the knife gets pulled out after he starts losing (or feeling unsafe) in barehands. This usually occurs where you can't see it, often in the clinch, where the distance is short to target (lung, gut, neck).

We're not talking about dancing with knives. That's silly. But if you are cornered or surprised you have to do something. If you get challenged in the street, always expect a knife, or worse. Try to get away first (without triggering his "predator" instinct), since it's never really worth it.

[doubleouch]

Burton Richardson once said that the only knife disarm that he has found that works even some of the time is to grab the attackers knife hand with both of yours and let loose with headbuts knees, foot stomps, biting etc. Everything else requires too much finesse to pull off in a fight.

[William]

Broken Mace Wrote:

>>While I totally agree that you should run (preferrably), negotiate (a weak solution, but better than being cut), or >>equalize/overmatch (preferrably overmatch -- with a chair, gun etc.), these are not always possible.


Yes, that was my point. Run, if you can. And train realistically against a capable opponent so that if you have to stand and fight, you have a much better chance at getting out alive.


>>But the only way you are going to disarm a knife without a knife is to keep your heartrate under 145 bpm. If you don't, you'll >>lose fine motor control (your fingers). And if you do decide to disarm, it has to be within 10 seconds. After that, the unused >>adrenaline will start to wrack your body with the shakes. Then you'll have to run, asthma or no.

There is a whole movement devoted to Adrenal Stress training. The point being to train your self to remain in better control during an adrenaline dump that comes with that type of situation. Check out Peyton Quinn’s books/videos. You are right; most people don’t train at that kind of intensity and tend to loose control when it hits the fan.



>>After all that, you have to accept that you'll probably get cut, but if you know what you are doing, the chances of it being a >>critical cut are reduced. While you'll still go into shock, it's much easier to survive a cut on the back of the forearm or shoulder >>than on the inside

Agreed. Again, realistic training with a good, resisting/attacking opponent who isn’t just going to feed you angle 1, then angle 2, but to flow and really try to take your ass out. Even if you get both hands around his weapon hand, he can punch, elbow, knee or head butt as well. Just keep working it to better your chances.


>>You have to do what you have to do. If I can't run (not very good, actually) then I will stand my ground, overmatch him if I >>can, or disarm. I'd rather not, but hey . . .

Exactly my point.

William

[William]

Phillyman Wrote:

>>Hey question i know you dont want to name any names but >>was it a filipino art the instructor was teaching? And was it a >>knife art something similiar to say sayoc kali.

No, it was not a FMA.


William

[William]

Phillyman Wrote:

>>Hey question i know you dont want to name any names but >>was it a filipino art the instructor was teaching? And was it a >>knife art something similiar to say sayoc kali.

No, it was not a FMA.


William

[auto]

William

My personal experience with an Escrima knife fighter has shown me that grabbing the weapon arm with two hands was a bad idea. He would switch the blade hand so quickly it was unbelievable. Escrimadors are also well versed in there own form of trapping. Now, against a typical street guy two hand grabs will work because they don't know how to defend against it. An Escrimador will trap your arms and cut/stab you up badly. The best way we(my group) found was to create space,feint high, kick low while moving in and trapping/pushing the arm in towards his body while finger jabbing the eyes or throat. The feint and the kick distracted him just enough to move in and catch him unexpectedly. If you weren't quick enough or hesitated, he got you practically every time. We did the chalk thing too except we used black/red ink. But then again, how many experienced Escrimador knife fighters will you meet in the street? BTW, my friend Basel was killed later that year back home in a knife fight against another very experienced knife fighter. Rest in peace bro'.

[Brokenmace]

auto

Sorry to hear about your friend. If it was such an easy time against knives without knives, no one would be using knives . . .

Folk forget that sometimes, I think.

As for disarming escrimadors? Well, you can't stop, and you forgot the headbutts, armbreaks, and knees. No one can effectively switch and use a knife while being sqaurely HKEed. Sparring doesn't simmulate the full-on pain associated with these techniques.

You should also zone away from the other arm anyway. I never commit both arms to a technique just to leave my opponent's free arm to do as it will.

P.S. William, I guess we weren't arguing the point . . .

[knifer]

Eskrimadors?

Bruce Lee didn't think too much of Eskrima.
What an idiot. He lucky he didn't face Ilustrisimo.

[pcarney]

Some good points about knife fighting. The first martial art I studied was aikido, and even then I realized how unlikely their knife defences were. Everything came from a vertical strike or stab, and always ended up with you throwing around a willing opponent, etc. I also studied kempo for a short time- once again, unlikely defences.
FMA has offered the only realistic knife defence (short of getting the hell out of there) I've seen. As illustrated in the previous posts, your best chance is to try and incapacitate the knife fighter before attempting a disarm. For anyone who hasn't done so, I highly recommend working with a chalked training blade or marker- you'll only need a couple minutes to see that, in all likely hood, you're gonna get cut.

Does anyone here carry a knife? I don't carry weapons, but if necessary, I'd rather carry a collapsible baton (i think they call them 'cobras') then a knife. Although there is a good 'fear factor' to a blade, I'd rather carry a self defence weapon that isn't so likely to kill someone.