Sparring = reality

[pcarney]

I've noticed that several posts have equated sparring to fighting. But is it? Even at the highest contact, there are still things that aren't allowed- such as my dim mak death thumb

Beyond techniques, there's another element to a fight that is hard, or perhaps inadvisable to duplicate in a sparring session- that is the emotional content. Be it fear, anger, whatever, these are emotions that have to be dealt with in a fight. Often, it seems that the emotion must be controlled or overcome before you can hope to win a fight. I've heard about systems that try to address this, and I'm interested in learning more.

Another point, when we spar, we're sparring trained fighter- how often do you think you'll be faced with a trained fighter 'in the street' (the most cliched term in MA). That is, one of those arses who comes barrelling in with haymakers. This is 180 degrees from the trained, logical attacks we deal with while sparring.

Obviously, these are but a few ways that sparring differs from fighting. Don't get me wrong- I think realistic sparring (good contact, none of that 'don't kick below the waist' crap, etc) is a very important part of training. But at best, its still a simulation.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

You are right.

It's a bit like people learning to swim and do life saving techniques in a nice warm swimming pool. No matter what skills they learn (even when wearing their pyjamas pretending they're clothes) you won't know whether you can cut the mustard until you are in the middle of a stormy and freezing ocean trying to keep a panicking 15 stone lunatic afloat, with no sign of help anywhere.

Sparring is one of the tools that can improve your art. But don't let skill in sparring fool you into thinking you will necessarily be good on the street.

[StraightBlaster]

If you have been training to fight against trained fighters, then untrained fighters are no problem to beat. If you could beat by a drunken bums haymaker on the street then you suck big time and need to switch to a good school.

There is a perfect method of training. This would be to engage in life or death combat on a regular basis. If you did this (and survived) your skill level would reach levels unheard of. Of course we can't do this so we must come as close to it as possible and still be able to go back to class tomarrow.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Ok, besides the fact that Bri Thai has no business discussing reality....


I agree, sparring does not take into account 'real world situations' very often. This is hard to duplicate. Tony Blauer, Marc MacYoung, and Peyton Quinn offer numerous suggestions on exactly this issue.

[Guest]

"If you have been training to fight against trained fighters, then untrained fighters are no problem to beat."

This is not true at all. Alot depends on the individual that you are fighting. There are many people out there who are rock hard, strong, courageous and fast. And don't forget that there are many Martial Arts techniques and training methods that are poor, and can give you a false sense of security.

Never, ever, ever underestimate a potential fighting opponent. Even leaving the possibility of him having some kind of weapon out of the equation, he just may be almost impossible to hurt, full of anaerobic capacity and insane enough not to care whether he lives or dies. And, even worse, he may not care whether or not he kills you.

No offence Straightblaster, honestly. But I think that may be one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever seen.

[Jerry Wetzel]

Hello,

I agree with you that sparring is still fake. However, you can still make it the most realistic fake stuff you can come with, to paraphrase Tony Blauer. By adding in the emotional climate, sucker punching, set ups, dialogue, environmental factors, improvised weapons, into a realistic scenario utilizing proper safety equipment, you can start to get an idea of how you will be able to adapt in a real encounter. Once you've done this, debrief, adjust, and repeat. Then, make any necessary adjustments in your training regimen.

Regards,
Jerry

[StraightBlaster]

Bri Thai,

You need to find a better martial arts school. If your training does not prepare you to be able to handle any untrained opponent then you need to find a school that will. It is possible to become a skilled fighter that can easliy beat unskilled fighters. Why bother with martial arts at all if they are not going to prepare you for untrained people? I have been in the ring with UFC fighters, any untrained guy on the street is going to be a piece of cake after those guys.

[Guest]

"You need to find a better martial arts school."

That's actually quite insulting. Try this on for size :-

YOU NEED TO GET OUT MORE.

If you seriously think martial arts training guarantees success against people who don't do martial arts than you have no idea of the dangerous people out there. You're living in cloud cuckoo land.

You have no appreciation of the influence a person's mindset has over their fighting abilities. You have no concept of just how evil some people can be, how little life means to them, how little they feel pain, and just how much ferocity and violence they can dish out without tiring. Of course I am not talking about the majority of people here. I am talking about the 1%. I have seen with my own eyes what an enraged lunatic can do. It is not human. You obviously haven't seen it. You need to get out more.

You need to wise up before you're caught unawares. Like I said before, the dojo is like that nice little swimming pool, and it still is a swimming pool (complete with life guards) even if Tony Blauer is splahing you all. I'm sure he would agree. I bet he doesn't think untrained people would be a pushover. I have been in the high seas in a storm a few times and I came out alive. Just. I don't think you even know what it feels like to get your little tootsies wet. I've had a lung full. It isn't a pushover at all.

Of course you can increase your chances by developing effective techniques and attributes, but you're convincing yourself that all untrained people will be a pushover. Mentally you are ripe for the picking. You are not only in Code White, you are in Code Whiter than White. An average street mugger will take your over confident arse and kick it all the way to the cash point, by which time reality will be tap tap tapping at your door, and you will be screaming for mercy as you hand over your money. You have no respect for what these lunatics are capable of, and when it happens to you it will be too late.

I've seen men who could barely be contained by 6 or 7 others. I've seen a man head butt a steel door for over an hour in an attempt to get out of it. We were watching in terror as, at one point, we thought he might just do it. I've given people my best shot, square on the jaw, and I've watched them shake it off and then come at me like a tiger. If only you could feel my best shot. I suspect it would take you to sleepy land were, as a matter of interest, it has taken many people. But not the 1%. Not the 1% of inhumans who seemingly can take anything and never stop.

PS - If you think my martial arts school needs "developing", why not take a look at the Instructor. Qualified to teach JKD under Inosanto, qualified to teach Muay Thai under Master Toddy (very famous in England), qualified to teach Combat Submission Wrestling under Eric Paulson. www.maxt.co.uk

But I think you will ignore this advice. I think you feel nice and warm in your secure little dreamland. And I genuinely hope that you wake up before Mr. 1% comes a knocking.

No offence. You havent seen the dead remains of someone who has been kicked to death, or someone who has had his throat ripped out. I have. I don't think Chi Sao, or the Roundhouse Kick etc. made alot of difference.

You need to get out more.

[terry]

Master Toddy: Although perhaps less well-known in the U.S., he is well known and well-respected in Muay Thai circles. He produces fighters that rock. I believe he also has some U.S.-based students.

Do you ever get over to Paris or Amsterdam to train with other Thai trainers? Golden-leg, who is in Paris, was an awesome fighter. I wonder how he is as a trainer.

Terry

[pcarney]

well, bickering aside, you all made some good points. It seems the only way you know you've got 'what it takes' is to use it- get in a fight. But frankly, despite my love for all sorts o ass beating, I'm not a violent guy. Not to mention the possibility of going to jail or seriously hurting/killing someone. No thanks. So I guess 'near as I can get' is the best I can do.

As far as fighting untrained guys, we've all heard/seen where martial artists get pummeled by the unwashed masses. I believe this reflects two things-
1. A martial arts mindset. We're all used to sparring trained opponents- when some drunk ass starts to swing away, its easy to respond in kind- throwing out all the training, etc, and just start throwing haymakers.
2. Mental prepardness. I've seen this explained in better ways on other forums, but basically, you have to have a bit of killer instinct. You have to be able to recieve and deliver violence. You have to be tough. Can this be taught?

[Guest]

terry - I have never competed in Muay Thai, and spend the majority of my time studyin Ne Waza at the club. I only started Thai at the age of 32 and got my nose broke a few too many times in sparring to want to get into it too seriously. I also have serious concerns over the extensive shin "conditioning" and think that, over the long term, some aspects of Thai training could do much more harm than good. I do have a great respect for the art though, and would not criticise anyone else for partaking in it. So no, I haven't been to Paris etc.

pcarney - "bickering aside"? Why waste it?
There are people who believe you can train or, more accurately, prepare the mind for a genuine life or death confrontation. I think what they have to say often makes sense. Check out

https://www.geoffthompson.com

You will note that he does NOT underestimate untrained fighters. There is always the 1%.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I would have to agree with Bri Thai here. He is right at least 1% of the time.


Concerning mental aspects of fighting/self defense, check these folks out:

Alain Burrese
Marc MacYoung


Also, there is a whole list of sweet sites posted by our compadre, Sharp Phil:

Sharp Phil

But Phil is afraid that I'm gonna put a whupass on him AGAIN so he is afraid to post here anymore....

Spanky

[StraightBlaster]

"If you seriously think martial arts training guarantees success against people who don't do martial arts than you have no idea of the dangerous people out there. You're living in cloud cuckoo land. "

Thanks to my training I am one of those dangerous people.

"You have no appreciation of the influence a person's mindset has over their fighting abilities"

I do, and thats why developing a killer mindset and learning to deal with someone else who has one is a major part of my training.

"I have seen with my own eyes what an enraged lunatic can do"

Me too, thats why I train to be able to deal with it.

"I bet he doesn't think untrained people would be a pushover. I have been in the high seas in a storm a few times and I came out alive. Just. I don't think you even know what it feels like to get your little tootsies wet. I've had a lung full. It isn't a pushover at all."

I have had a lung full a couple times too. Again, thats why I train the way I do so I can keep from it happening again.

"You have no respect for what these lunatics are capable of, and when it happens to you it will be too late. "

My training allows me to be capable of the same. Like I said my training has allot of mental preperation, to get me to these lunitics level when need be.

"Not the 1% of inhumans who seemingly can take anything and never stop."

There are techniques that don't rely on pain to be effective i.e. rear naked choke. And yes you can choke someone on the street, You can do it from standing even. Just ask the L.A.P.D.

"But I think you will ignore this advice. I think you feel nice and warm in your secure little dreamland."

My secure little dream land has broken my nose 3 times, hand twice, ribs once, busted up 6 teeth(well, four teeth, two of them twice), and caused several concussions.

"You need to get out more."

In my younger days I was involved with gangs.

[StraightBlaster]

Bri Thai,

I take back what I said about your school. That was out of line. Sorry.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

I kinda agree with both here.

On one hand, Straightblaster is correct in saying that harcore training, a lot of contact sparring, fighting, etc. really will harden you into a combat athelete that CAN take out most untrained people. Simply because a lot of "untrained" people are really not all that tough.

On the other hand, Bri is correct about the dangers of experienced fighters who don't necessarily have 'martial arts" training. Anyone who has seen and been in a fair amount of violence knows that they are not invincible, and that underestimating someone in a street assault is a dangerous move.

A true "pro" on the street will not throw hands with you. A lot of times you won't know who the "pro" is until he lets you know. And by then it's usually too late.
Your training has to go beyond just the physical and has to delve into a lot of the mental and psychological components of these kinds of attacks. That means lots of contact scenario drills, adrenaline dump management, sucker punch drills, hidden weapon attack scenarios, combat firearm tactics, OC tactics,
verbal de-escalation, pre-emptive strike training and justifications, etc.

A true criminal is not going to come up and try and fight ANYONE who remotely resembles a strong fighter. You'll never see him try and throw "haymakers" at a Mark Coleman.......but he will talk to him, ask him for the time or other such things, while three of his associates attack from behind with guns already drawn.

If you want "real counter assault" tactics you've got to look outside most martial arts. That's not to say the physicality of martial arts won't help you (a trained fighter will take out most untrained people..) But most "untrained" people don't fight.

Ryu