Judo Throws in Self-Defense.

[JKDfreak]

Hey everyone,
I wanted to see your opinion about the Judo throws,which can be effective on the streets ,and as well which ones can fit to a particular "shape" of person.
In my analysis ,I found that there is 4 type of throws:the shoulder throws; the hip throws;the sweeps ;and the "sutemi" sacrifice throws.In this topic I will describe these throws and my point of view about it.

So,firstly, the shoulder throws.The two main shoulder throws I know are Ippon-Seoi-Nage and Morote-Seoi-Nage.There is variations of these of course.
Ippon-Seoi-Nage is the most used and I think the most practical and effective of the 2.
Description:You face Uke,feets soulder-width .

1 step: While putting your right foot between Uke's legs you turn your torso ,pull Uke's and insert your right arm deep under Uke's armpit.

2.step: You turn your back to Uke while bending your knees loading up Uke on your back while pulling his right arm down. Remember your feets are between Uke's feets.

3.step:You straighten your legs and pulls his right arm down while bending in the direction of the throw.

variations:Low-Seoi Nage; Ippon Seoi Nage while taking a deep step to the outside of Uke's right leg with your right leg while sliding his right knee up to throw him ;Ippon-Seoi-Nage while holding Uke's left arm and pushing it under his right armpit creating a crossed-arm position to control him and also Ippon-Seoi- Nage while breaking Uke's arm in the motion.

Morote Seoi Nage is the same except you do not change your arm position.

Well now my opinion.I think ippon-seoi nage is a great throw but what I don't like is that you have to bend your knees and then extend.That's a waste of motion and you can only do it well if you are shorter than your opponent,though experienced judokas do it damn good.But for me it doesn't work so well although it's a great throw for self-defense if you're not very tall.


2°)Hip-Throws
There are basically 2 types of hip-throws:O-Goshi-like and Uki goshi-like.I'll describe O-goshi.

1.step:Slide your right arm around Uke's waist while gliding your right foot in front of his right foot.

2.step: Pull him up and toward you with both hands, simultaneously pivot on your right foot by stepping back with your left foot.Drop your hip and pull him across your right hip.

3.step:Snap your hip by twisting counet-clockwise.Tug his tight arm closely to you for control as you throw him.

Uki-Goshi is done the same except that you do not bend your knees and only your right foot is placed between Uke's leg,your left one on the outside.

This one has the same basic motion as Ippon Seoi Nage:you drop your body and then extend your knees,and has for me the same disadvantages as Ippon Seoi nage.On the other hand,Uki Goshi is a good throw because you do not drop your hips and Uke's is thrown more by the twisting motion of your hips than by loading him up on your hip.As well it's easy to learn and to execute,so a great throw for self-defense.

3°)The sweeps
There are many sweeps in Judo and many types of sweeps.I will describe O-Soto-Gari and De-Ashi-Barai

O-Soto-Gari:

1.steprag your left foot close and slightly to the outside of the opponent's right foot and keep your knee slightly bent.

2.step:As his posture is broken,move quickly with your right hip and leg forward.

3.step:Throw him by sweeping his right leg forward with the back of your right leg.

4.step.As you sweep his leg,drive your head toward the mat and lift your leg up until you're in a straight line.

This throw is a great throw for self-defense but you need a bit of balance though.

De-ashi-Barai
1.step:As your opponent step forward with his right foot,step back to your left with your right foot.Then quickly sweep your oppnent's right foot with your left foot.

2.step:AS you keep sweeping his foot pull his right elbow down.

3.step.Complete the throw by lifting his left shoulder up and keep pulling his right elbow down.

There are a lot of other throws,but they are kind of variations of these like it depends which part of Uke's foot you sweep in which direction,Inside or outside his leg,with different legs and you can also sweep both leg with one sweep,at the same time.

Now I will describe you another throw:Sasae-Tsuri-Komi-Ashi aka Hiza-Guruma
1.step:Advance your right foot forward between their legs,making contact with your right outer thigh against their left inner thigh.Simultaneously pull your left arm and push your right arm in acircular motion.

2.step:Continue the circular motion with your arms as you place the sole of your left foot on the front of their right ankle.

3.step.Continue the upper body motion in a circular motion to the left as the opponent falls to the ground.

That's another sweep and I don't knwo what you think about it .That's one of the throw I 'm the best at it,so you know my opinion about it.

The sutemi or sacrifice throws;
These throws are particular,because you actually throw Uke while"sacrificing" you balance ,falling to the ground.Uke is thrown by this motion or better explained by his momentum and the weight of your body +gravity.One of the most well-know sutemi is Tomeo-Nage.If you have questions about this throw ,just ask me and I'll explain it to you.These throws are effective but only in competition because if you fall to the ground in the street it can hurt a lot though you've made an ukemi.Si I wouldn't recommend it for self-defense.

There are some throws that do not really fall in these categories like Harai-Goshi or Tai-Otoshi.I'll explain Harai-Goshi.

1.step:Pivoting on your left toes,whirl your upper-body to the left,stretch your right leg out and tense its big toe.

2.step:Put the backof your right thigh up against the front of your opponent's right thigh and ride them well on your hips as you raise their right leg from the floor in a scooping motion.

3.step:Sweep them over and off the ground;Pull with both arms and twist both your head and your upper bosy as yout hrow them down.

I hope you understood me well and now I have a questiopn for you.I am tall (1m87) thin and quick.What throws would you recommend for me considering that i am tall and quick? What would be the most effective way for guys like me to throw their opponent down in SELF-DEFENSE not in a competition?

[Scott Kano]

Well My current favourite throw is UchiMata. Mostly because I always seem to go in for either harai Goshi or the same similar type of throws.
In a self Defence situation to protect from a strike from above, it is prescribed to block and execute a Ippon seionage which works the best. But this can eb a very hard throw if you are taller than the opponent (mainly used for smaller guys that can get under big guys).
One Guy in my Dojo he is a brown belt and he is very tall and weighs about 96Kg. He gets in too some fights quite regularly and swears by Sase-Tsuir-Komi-Ashi (propping drawing ankle) he says people dont really expect it as you have got hold of them on the jersey u take one step to the side and put your foot by there ankle to execute the throw.
I know one blue belt that got punched in the back of the head and he turned round an execued a beautiful harai Goshi onto the floor apparently.

Tomoe-Nage is another one I would use in self defence which is one of the sacrafice throws, I have really almost perfected it in the Dojo at different KumiKata (grip grab hand positions).
You really should try the throws against different sized opponents, and see which one seems to be the most effective. As I find certain throws aren't as effective against certain people than others.

I hope I was of some help, If you would like more information, just add me to your icq or msn: thechosen_one2@hotmail.com or look in my profile.

Thanks alot for letting me post to your reply,
goodbye for now!!

[JKDfreak]

hey scott,
Thanks for your reply!!!!!U're the only one who replied!!!!
It seems that the guys on this forum are too lazy to read my post or they don't want to answer.
Anyway that's nice what u wrote.
You know my favorite throw is hiza-guruma and uki-goshi.I finally discovered that Uki-goshi is easier to apply than O-goshi and u're right.Often guys don't except a throw like hiza-guruma or sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi!!!
I try to understand how harai-goshi and the similar throws work.I don't know what you think of that:i find for the moment that when i try to apply them I loose my balance.That's because u have to sweep their thigh and be parralel to the ground.
I think that tomeo-nage is a useful and great throw but maybe I wouldn't apply it too much in the streets because u don't know on what you will fall (roll).It can hurt like.... if u do it on concrete or broken glass.
Well ,thank you for your post and I added your adress to my MSN.
Hope to see you soon.
Regards
Edd

[chris davis 200]

from a SD perspective, if you need to manipulate yourself into a deep couch to try koshinage style throws then i wouldn't suggest it!

Have you ever tried an Irimi type of technique out of Aikido or Daito ryu, these work real well for tall people, I am actually not tall and have used them many times in street situations.

I know that i havn't really answered your post but hay,

Thats my thoughts,

Chers
Chris

[Guest]

"It seems that the guys on this forum are too lazy to read my post or they don't want to answer"

Maybe. Personally I switched off when you wrote that "In my analysis" line. But I forced myself to read on.....

Seeing one written description of a technique is hard enough. A picture really is worth a thousand words...... But expecting people to read so many is a little ambitious.

Anyway, in general I'm not too sure that many Judo throws are a good idea in the street. Especially the ones where you turn your back on the opponent, but they may be useful if you are attacked from behind. But as a general rule I would be wary of any move that required you to be able to grip heavyish clothing. There is just too much chance that they will not be wearing it. And performing a sacrifice throw when there are no rules rto protect you is, well, asking to be sacrificed. And there are many people willing to take you up on it.

I could imagine the basic footsweeps being a good move, depending on the situation. And almost all the groundwork is good.

I recommend Judo to people who want to learn to fight. But would advise them to pick just 2 or 3 reallt favourite techniques to rely on in the street.

[ryanhall]

i agree with bri thai. when you throw someone, you the idea is to hit them with the ground. this violates cwct--use a natural body weapon instead. i have a pretty good ippon seo nage, but i wouldn't think of using it because it exposes my back. throws are too easy to screw up on, thus making them impractical. of course, it depends on who you are dealing with, but in reality, you rarely know what an assailant's intentions/capabilities are. if you wanted to try judo, i would stick to simple sweeps and the like. sacrifices, throws that give up your back, and anything that requires you to occupy both hands on the opponent's body are not a good idea. always assume you're dealing with a maniac.

just my 2 cents

ryan

[Scott Kano]

Yeah Bri Thai brings up many good points, in saying that any shoulder throw or similar leaves your behind open to attack. Thats why you would pick the throws you would find the most effective.Foot sweeps would easily be some of the most effective as it just requires a little movement and the aggressor is on the ground leaving u to finish him off with a kick to the groin, then into an armbar to detain him. Yeah I thought about tomoe nage and I guess you are right depening on the surface u were on. Even if it is on concrete u only do a slight half backwards roll, and then your oppponents momentum sends him over you. This throw is excellent when the opponents upper body is slightly forward as now all u need to do is fall back, and hes over, but yeah the surface is a major factor unless you can take the fall then its entirley up to you.
In my class near the end of the lesson we do alot of self defence and it is mainly different attacking positions that the opponent attacks you at, like punch to the abdomen bearhug from behind etc. some of the throws Like Uchimata come in very handy, in the ebarhug position.

To make your throw very strong and really disabling the persons balance is when you step in for the throw and then you bring your second leg back as far as you can between there legs and getting way bellow their OBI (belt) with your hips, youll find the Uke goes over so much more easily.
I guess it really helps to have good balance in these situations, that is why I'm currently doing some balance exercises to help me out here.
These balance exercises can be found in the October 2002 issue of Black Belt magazine, in 4 ways to build better balance.

If you would like me to tell you these exercises and get some pics I will, If so just post here saying you would like them.

Thanks for listenning
Scott

[Scott Kano]

Just found a good site on techniques and see what throws look like,

http://www.judoinfo.com/techjudo.htm

enjoy

Thanks
Scott

[ryanhall]

good points scott, but i repectfully disagree. most "street fights" don't happen in the street. throwing someone in a bar is not as easy as you'd think. i would advise against throwing for the simple reason that you should avoid tying up with someone in any situation--the exception being a clinch (not a judo grab). if they are huge, they can manhandle you, and it is WAY too easy for an assailant (big or small) to produce a knife in such a situation. i don't care for judo's shirt+sleeve grab because it doesn't control anything vital, leaves you relatively open to attack (hands too low to protect the face), and depends on clothing.

judo has weight classes for a reason. even using proper leverage, it is no picnic trying to throw someone who is half again your weight/mass when they don't have the enthusiasm of a training partner. i'm in no way saying that you can't throw someone, just that there are more efficient/effective/safe (foolproof) options. hypothetical: you tell two kids that they can fight, but can't hit. what do they do? they try to throw each other to the ground. probably the most innate fighting skill is keeping one's balance so as to avoid the ground. people counter throws without knowing why or how they do, but they do it all the same. take ippon seo nage for example: all you need to do is close the distance and step outside about 1 foot to avoid the throw. this was my natural response when others tried to throw me.

i am in no way bashing judo. i think it's fun and can teach you some good things about fighting--especially during randori. however, i would not try to use it as my base for self defense. too many variables go unaccounted for in the art. to each their own. if you are exceptionally talented in judo, go for it. it can be great.

just rambling

ryan

[crazyjoe380]

i've done it in a fight..

to put it short.. some guy tried to sucker punch me when we said we were not going to fight..

i went down to pick up my shirt and then i was coming up he tried to punch but too much on the gas!! he missed me and at the same time i grabbed his shirt and flipped him down.

basic instinct .. i didn't plan to do it but i just did.. and i didn't even beat him down. i felt sorry for his stupid ass. i was just slapping him in the face and embarresing him in from of his homies..

but judo works

[Scott Kano]

Its based on personal preference you choose what works best for you, Im not trying to convert anyone to judo I was just thinking of good situations where you could use them and what types of throws. If you dont feel comfrtable using them, no probs dont.

Entirely up to you.

Thankyou!!
Scott

[Guest]

Mind you, I did see Neil Adams demonstrate Tai Otoshi on the TV a while back. He had the throw down incredibly well. He kind of leapt towards the opponent, simultaneously twisting into the correct position, and the guy went over as if he had been hit by a train. You could almost feel the power of it, it was that fast.

I guess an expert can make almost anything work. But the more complicated the move, the more "expert" you have to be. Keep it simple, and maximise your chances of being expert enough to save your skin.

[ryanhall]

amen. simplicity is what works under pressure. if it sounded like i was bashing judo, i apoligize. i like judo. i was pretty good at it, and i have actually used once in a fight (o goshi) to toss someone trying to hit me. what crazyjoe described is basically how i feel about throwing--it comes naturally. when someone offbalances themself, dumping them over is a pretty natural thing to do. that was how it worked for me. the actual technique was incidental. i just prefer to strike or to clinch and strike rather than throwing someone. headbutting someone and following up with a compound attack (when it is justified) is, in my opinion, a much faster/safer way to deal with a bigger, stronger adversary. i wouldn't want to tie up with someone who may be a wrestler and has a size advantage. i suppose i would classify much of judo under the rowdy bother in law/punk you don't want to hurt too badly category--though i have seen some guys who will put a major hurt on you with a throw. i just think that creating the "tie up and throw/grapple" mentality can be counter productive to reality training. no art stands on its own. serious cross training is the way to go.

ryan