why did he do it?

[akja]

IT STARTED WITH SOMEBODY SAYING BRUCE HAD A 3RD DEGREE IN KARATE, WHY SWICTH.
SO WHY U WASTE YOU R READING WRITING THEN!!

[ap Oweyn]

Originally posted by akja
[B]You're right but there is differance between guys he "practiced" with and any system that he took lessons.

i'm not sure that there is a difference, frankly. much of the point he was trying to make is the obliteration of thinking along party lines (karate man, gung fu man, etc.). so asserting that he would NEVER be ranked in a japanese art is, as i said, a bit meaningless. he wasn't bucking japanese systems. he was bucking system itself.

His martial art instruction was in Hong Kong. In the U.S. he evolved and we all know the rest.

precisely. so if his initial instruction was in hong kong, but his evolution was in the united states (where he had access to practitioners of karate, gung fu, boxing, etc.), then it makes little sense to tag him according to the nationality of his first art. if he wished to be identified specifically as a chinese martial artist, why investigate fencing and boxing? why train with jhoon rhee, chuck norris, and joe lewis? rhee and norris have no chinese background to my knowledge. and lewis is far better known for his karate and kickboxing than his gung fu. so if bruce wanted to solidify his identity in the chinese martial arts, why would he seek these people out?

He wasn't ranked he came to the U.S. afer 5 years of wing chun. At that time the average was probably around 10 years to completion.

right. and presumably the fact that he didn't put in the full decade is an indication of something. and the fact that the systems he went on to investigate weren't all chinese indicates something further again. and, to my mind, what it indicates is not that bruce lee was hung up on being a chinese martial artist.


stuart b.

[ap Oweyn]

Re: Jaysus Keerist!

Originally posted by quietanswer
You guys would probably be better off doing some pushups and chins than discussing why some dead guy did some stuff you can't even be sure he did.

I mean think about it. It's kind of like arguing about Jesus.

of course we'd be better off doing chin ups. but given that i'm stuck in my office on a rainy friday afternoon, chin ups don't really seem like a likely diversion.

theoretical debate. that's a likely diversion. and, in addition, it's kinda the point of a discussion forum.

yes, it's kinda like discussing jesus. and as we all know, nobody ever discusses jesus.

[akja]

HE WAS PROUD OF BEING CHINESE A PROMOTING THE CHINESE PEOPLEM AND CULTURE. jOE LEWIS IS THE ONLY ONE OF THOSE GUYS WHO CAME OUT AND SAID THAT BRUCE WAS DOING MUCH OF THE TEACHING. AND "JOE LEWIS FIGHTING SYSTEM", IS JKD IN DISGUISE.

[ap Oweyn]

alright akja. no need to shout. sheesh.

he was certainly proud of being chinese. and he certainly used the terms 'gung fu vs. karate' quite a bit early on. i can remember tapes from his 'green hornet' auditions where he discusses the difference between a karate punch and a gung fu punch. but that was early on in the 'evolution' you mentioned.

the point, to my mind, was that you said he would NEVER be ranked in karate. and i agree with you. but not because it was japanese. not because it was conformed. but because he wasn't prone to towing the party line, period. he wasn't certified, rank, or otherwise acknowledged in anything that i can think of. so why make a point about karate when his behavior illustrated essentially the same attitude about everything else? he went to chuck norris and jhoon rhee to learn something about the way their systems handled kicking. clearly he had some regard for those methods. japanese and korean methods. so he was looking beyond the chinese arts. that's the point.


stuart b.

[akja]

you're right, sorry I wasn't shouting, just making it easier to read.
I was looking for a site that I found before that showed Joes whole curiculum, but I can't remember where it was.
But here something interesting.

http://www.joelewiskarate.com/products/bruceleebook.htm

I'm a crosstrainer for life but my sifu dosen't see things that way.
Heres his site.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

I believe in always evolving my martial art.
I have heard from word of mouth, which could be intereted in diiferant ways, that he wouldn't practice "Japanese M.A.". I have a Japanese and Okinowan background with all the rest.

[ap Oweyn]

akja,

no worries. we're just debating here. easy to get too wrapped up in it. (me as much as you)

i think the important thing to remember is that bruce lee was a person like any other. and, as such, there are lots of contradictory things you can point to in support of different views. for example, he looked into judo. and judo is japanese. but perhaps he felt that it held something that interested him, despite it contradicting an earlier statement.

you're right, i think. representing the chinese culture well was a big priority for him. and i shouldn't gloss over that fact. but i don't think his actions in the big picture bear out the idea that he was adamantly opposed to studying japanese systems.


stuart b.

[yenhoi]

In my office on this shit ass monday morning, I am watching the DVD: Bruce Lee: A warriors Journey.

Not quoting:

Bruce Lee:

' ' a karate punch is like a iron bar and it go bang! a gung fu punch is like a chain of steel links with a spiked ball on the end and it go wang!... ' '

pretty much what he said in that interview ap, its on the dvd

Someone said something about 'his book' - I just want to note on this thread that the only book that Bruce Lee published himself was the Tao of Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense. I think it actually started as a term paper in seatle or somesuch. All the other books written by him were only notes when Brucey died, collected, etc etc etc, and published by a guy named John Little, this includes the Tao if JKD, FYI. Some people also claim he wrote the James Lee book on Wing Chun, others insist (so does the book itself) that he was only the 'technical editor.'

Much like Jesus, Bruce Lee left very little written material, that he actually intended millions of people to read. (He probably did at some point, but we can only speculate on that.)

However if you did read all of Bruce's notes (John Little's books number like 8 or 9 now) you would get a good idea of 'why' bruce lee 'rejected' 'pure wing chun' - most of you would probably end up with much the same opinion as ap here.

Another important note is that Bruce Lee was also a philosopher. One major component of JKD is the philosophical aspect. Individuality, uniqueness, free mind, free and truthful expression. Many of his note emphasize this aspect of JKD.

[ap Oweyn]

yenhoi,

yeah, i've seen that clip before. in fact, i think i mentioned it earlier in this thread.

but he said a lot of contradictory things. right? looking through the Tao of JKD, it's not difficult to find notes of his deemphasizing the idea of being a karate man, a gung fu man, a kali man, etc. he didn't, to my recollection, say "absorb what is useful. but don't waste your time with karate. it's too rigid." surely, he DID think it was too rigid, as an overall entity. at the same time, he must have thought that he could gain something from a study of it. otherwise, why work out with norris, lewis, or rhee? purely for their benefit?

the original question suggested that karate was too rigid or conformed to be of any use to bruce lee. and i'm suggesting that this isn't so. that a given style, or even a given technique, is not so set in stone that a person who wanted to use it as a springboard couldn't do so.

think about it. fencing. one of the biggest influences on JKD. it's limited by olympic rules, the need for a sword, etc. and yet that didn't stop him from drawing something from it.


stuart b.