why did he do it?

[AAAhmed46]

Karate is very......conformed. yet brucey learned it until the 3rd dan. Why? Why did he invert it in jkd? Would it not make it LESS formless?

[ryanhall]

jesus, man. registered one day and you've already started 10 or so threads. woah there cowboy! on a different note, i have no idea what you are trying to say in your post.

Why did he invert it in jkd? Would it not make it LESS formless?

???? answers are easier to come by when the question makes sense. invert it?

[crazyjoe380]

just to know it all..


have a diffrent angle incase shit happends.. it's better it and not use it then not know it and one day might have to use it..

mixing it up, combining the raw power of karate with the other styles

[Szczepankiewicz]

Scratch that, reverse it.

[ap Oweyn]

uh, when did bruce lee receive a 3rd dan black belt in karate?

[AAAhmed46]

He trained in it briefly. He learned some karate and applied it. Chucky the norris showed him that high kicks of karate and thai boxing can render wing chun blocks rather ineffective. Thus, bruce studied karate advanced quickly then went on to other arts.

[AAAhmed46]

My point is that, karate is very very conformed, very rigid, its hard to adapt karate since it has sooo much procedure. But jkd is to be formless in battle(and life). Wouldnt that "wreck" jkd?

[ap Oweyn]

aaahmed46,

Originally posted by AAAhmed46
He trained in it briefly. He learned some karate and applied it. Chucky the norris showed him that high kicks of karate and thai boxing can render wing chun blocks rather ineffective. Thus, bruce studied karate advanced quickly then went on to other arts.

i'm aware of his time with chuck norris. and jhoon rhee. but that's a far cry from earning a 3rd degree. actually, i would be impressed if you could show documentation that he was awarded any rank in karate at all.

My point is that, karate is very very conformed, very rigid, its hard to adapt karate since it has sooo much procedure. But jkd is to be formless in battle(and life). Wouldnt that "wreck" jkd?

and it's a fair point, which is precisely why i'm unclear on you introducing false information to support it.

to answer your question, no it isn't hard to adapt karate. no harder than it is to adapt any other established system. if karate is rigid and conformed, it is because the karateka involved wish it to be so. they preserve that. not the other way around. if it were the other way around, you would not see the modifications we've seen, resulting in things like kyokushinkai, for example.

people dictate an art's form. bruce took a look at karate, made modifications to his own training based on his experiences with it, and made it his own. many people do likewise. chuck norris himself was hardly a stout traditionalist. he began in tangsoodo (korean, not japanese), learned traditional hand skills from the likes of fumio demura, and more recently integrated machado jiujutsu into his training. so how can karate be so conformed as to trap anyone?


stuart b.

p.s. i've never heard or read that bruce's final rejection of pure wing chun had anything to do with high kicking. do you have a source for this information?

[AAAhmed46]

I heard he had a third degree black belt on a talk show. So his level of training about karate is undecided and Kudos on being critical. It was wrong of me to mention such a thing.


However, i do know that he trained in some karate. Though not actually formal. He trained with well known fighters, such as chucky(who i THINK did NOT give bruce actual detailed training). But he has trained in karate, im sure of it, and ive seen a little of it in his book.


Of coarse it doens play to big of a role in jkd. But im having a hard time seeing how it could be applied to it?

[AAAhmed46]

Secret power within mentions it. NOT regection of wing chun, just a flaw in it. It actually more so compliments the art. Im not saying that it CANT stop high kicks. Hell, i would run if i were to face a dude in wing chun.

[ap Oweyn]

aaahmed46,

Originally posted by AAAhmed46
I heard he had a third degree black belt on a talk show. So his level of training about karate is undecided and Kudos on being critical. It was wrong of me to mention such a thing.


However, i do know that he trained in some karate. Though not actually formal. He trained with well known fighters, such as chucky(who i THINK did NOT give bruce actual detailed training). But he has trained in karate, im sure of it, and ive seen a little of it in his book.


Of coarse it doens play to big of a role in jkd. But im having a hard time seeing how it could be applied to it?

keep the kudos. i don't think i deserve them. i was overly critical. my apologies.

if you heard this on a talk show (perhaps the pierre burton interview), that's fair enough. i've not heard anything to that effect. and it still seems highly unlikely. but i should give you the benefit of the doubt that you heard it.

i think you're right that his training with chuck norris wasn't extensive. but he also trained (though i don't know how often) with jhoon rhee (taekwondo) and joe lewis (karate). so the sources are there. again, though, lewis is hardly a staunch traditionalist. so there's no evidence that karate inherently has a conforming effect on people. and there's no evidence that individual principles and techniques from karate have to be performed in a rigid manner. modification is not nearly as difficult as you seem to indicate. honestly.

a person can take the power generation principles from a kick, for example, without taking on the whole 'character' of a style. if bruce's original wing chun didn't throw a sidekick with full hip rotation, that doesn't mean that in order to learn a full hip rotation sidekick from the likes of rhee, lewis, or norris, he'd have to 'give up' the general flow of his previous training. quite the contrary.

Secret power within mentions it. NOT regection of wing chun, just a flaw in it. It actually more so compliments the art. Im not saying that it CANT stop high kicks. Hell, i would run if i were to face a dude in wing chun.

that's norris' book, right? well, i asked you to cite a source, and you did. nicely done. just know that there are other theories on this. the most prevalent i've heard is lee's bout with wong jak man, which supposedly ended with lee chasing wong around the room. it took too long and left him too winded.

that said, there were presumably a collection of things that lent to lee's disenchantment with wing chun.

anyway, while i disagree with you about the rigidity of karate, you handled my being overcritical very well. thanks for that.


stuart b.

[akja]

bruce lee?

If your talking about Bruce Lee, he never took karate lessons at all, he trained in several Gung-Fu systems but the 1 that he spent the most time with was Wing Chun Gung-Fu under Yip Man.
Bruce was a Chinese martial art practioner and with all the chinese arts out there he would never of been "officially a Japanese martial practioner". Period. If Brucey is somebody else, then carry on.
akja

[ap Oweyn]

akja,

well, that's the contention though. he didn't 'officially' study karate (either korean or japanese). but how officially did he study anything?! wing chun, perhaps. but he wasn't (to my knowledge) ranked in anything. chinese, japanese, or otherwise.

he would never of been "officially a Japanese martial practioner". Period.

you'll note that he wasn't too keen on the chinese status quo either. so this is kinda meaningless. the objection was to being official. not to being japanese.

he trained with people. some of those people were from gung fu. others from elsewhere. and, as far as i know, none of them 'ranked' him.


stuart b.

[akja]

You're right but there is differance between guys he "practiced" with and any system that he took lessons. His martial art instruction was in Hong Kong. In the U.S. he evolved and we all know the rest. He wasn't ranked he came to the U.S. afer 5 years of wing chun. At that time the average was probably around 10 years to completion.
akja