To trap or not to Trap.....

[akja]

OK guys, Give me some real world insight. Forget the fantasy that you haven't actually tried. I want to hear why trapping works or dosen't work based on actual training! Leave the "conceptual aspects " that someone else believed or said for another thread!!! I don't care if "YOU THINK" it won't work!! I wanna hear from the guys that are out there training and trying things before they say "what they think"!!!!

[ryanhall]

Traditional Chinese trapping (i.e. pak sau) in a real fight is often unrealistic because it requires a certain structure for both you and your opponent. When one person does not respond or act as planned, the trap usually falls apart. Aside from that, it is usually not necessary. Most people don't protect the centerline like a WC player or a boxer, so you don't have to work very hard to control it yourself. Trapping in the non-traditional sense does, however, work quite well at times. It's more of a limb immobilization than a technique. If something is in the way, just grab it and move it so that you can hit the person. That's what I have done in the past. Worked ok most of the time, and not so well on one other occasion. I like it because it frees your mind from a structure of how you "should" do something and just lets you do what needs to be done to win/survive. For me, trapping falls under the cool to know, but not essential category. Hope I helped.

[sikal]

The "classical" methods are, IMVHO, intended to point the way toward the "non-classical" applications.

But, that aside, I've never seen or been in a fight where trapping wasn't used. Now, I'll qualify that statement.

My definition of "trapping" is pretty broad. It means "removing an obstacle so my weapon can reach its target." This means that if I bear hug a guy and headbutt him then I've "trapped" his arms. If I step on his foot (which I do *a lot*) then I've "trapped" his foot. If I throw his arm out of the way and fire down the open line, then I've "trapped" his arm.

On the ground, trapping is used even more. Pinning the guy's arm to the ground with your knee so you can hit him in the face is a "trap" on his arm.

Also, my "weapon reaching its target" doesn't necessarily have to be a strike. It can be a joint lock, sweep, etc.

So, yes, I'd say that trapping is very useful. But if you get caught up in the mindset of trying to make the "classical" traps work, then you'll most likely be disappointed (though I have pulled off single traps in sparring ... i.e.: a single pak sao da ... and I'm often successful with jao sao).

And sometimes, you get lucky and pull off a beautiful classical trap ... but it's not what you rely on. You rely on the concept of trapping which, basically, is to smother them.

Well executed trapping will, in my experience, look like playground grappling from the outside ... but, on the receiving end, it feels like being smothered by an octopus. You know the guy's only got two arms and two legs ... but you'd swear that he's sprouting new limbs to hit you with.

Mike

[akja]

Pretty good! You both understood something that I've experienced. Ryan the way you started out, I thought I was in for a philosophy lesson. But you hit the nail on the head. Like everything else we do, trapping needs to be modified to fit us and to fit our "situation". And I'm glad to see that I'm not the only grappler that has been to apply trapping while grappling! In bjj you here about superior positions. I use what I call "superior hand positions". A bjj guy wants to get his "handles set". Well if you have long sleeves the next best thing is a superior hand position which will set up your strike or grappling game. If you take away the long sleeves ("handles" for those that don't know), this is extremely effective and that’s why I like to spend a lot of time working in the clinch. My hands are naturally fast. A bjj guy is trying to set up a bjj type technique and what you have coming up is "different" from what they practice. Note the word "practice". That’s a way of practicing for the street at the same time because its a somewhere in the middle of standup and grappling. I don't need to worry to much about closing the gap, I'm not bad at it, but it seems to happen by itself, so a superior hand position works well for me. I use this throughout grappling, it doesn’t matter if I’m flat on my back. It isn't a final move or technique, just another (controlling) tool for me.

[robertlee]

Points to what a trap is or isnt varies. I use a trap when it happens. Do not set it up just if I ended up with it I follow up with something else. You can look and see what you may want to see as a trap. To me it allows entry of a tool. But must just happen. If the person tightens there guard when Im striking I end up trapping to open it back up. Or leg trap to take down Or prevent there knee from striking. But then If I did not do it I did something else. I just see trapping as a by product of the action . It happens or it doesnt. It works better for me that way. I can do drills and get it of all day long. but in the spar What I do next is what I see at that moment. Not wild. Every move has an opening ervery move has a counter. Seeing reacting sets the out come of tyhat moment If it traps I did it If it just strikes I did IT If it went to the ground I thought on the way down of what can happen next. Fighting is a thinking game with a open mind to what is happening. Think to long and the other guy gets ahead. So I just do what I did at that time I do set some things up. Just saying traps work for me when I do them. And never when I just try them. A trap is like a punch fast. driving, and gone. onto something else.

[akja]

Points to what a trap is or isnt varies. I use a trap when it happens.

"Do not set it up just if I ended up with it I follow up with something else. You can look and see what you may want to see as a trap. To me it allows entry of a tool. But must just happen."
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I couldn't of said it better! Trapping is "one tool", that enhances a fighters perspective! BJJ taught me that its a "grabby" world out there. If your hands are tied up, you are using something else. But one thing is foer sure, (for me) sensitivity in my upper body changed my outlook in my training. Through training in bjj i developed in sesitivity in my whole body. My sensitivity in my lower body is differant than that of a "pure" bjj fighter. What I see first isn't just the escape or counter. Its more like "visioning the kill". Its hard to put it into words, I just see it differant! Also my upper body sensitivity enhances my "hand control" while grappling. I'm going to finish with a quote from Robert which sums it up pretty good:
"Points to what a trap is or isnt varies."

[MDVaughn]

what i was first taught when i started trapping is that trapping is a range. It is inside boxing range. Paul Vunak explains it best when he said, "in practice ninety percent is trapping ten percent is hitting, in a fight ten percent trapping ninety percent hitting. What you have to remember is that all trapping is to clear a line and hit it. Trapping drills are usually done for body mechanics and the ability to understand the range. In a fight trapping will just come and all the techiques inside boxing range are considered trapping. Because trapping is a range not a technique!!! To understand this more read Paul Vunaks state of the union interview on his progressive fighting systems website. Also read an article by Roy Harris on his Harris international website called what is Jkd? I think this will all help you understand trapping better. Keep playing with it.

Mike Vaughn

[akja]

Roy Harris is a great diverse martial artist. I've had the oppurtunity to learn a bit of BJJ from him when he's come up to San Jose. To me he has an auroa that you just know he's bad!
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"Because trapping is a range not a technique!!! "
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Very true and its a range that most under estimate and just plain haven't put the time in to understand. My Sifu is deep into the trapping range and when I got there I was fresh from Karate and was also beginning BJJ at about the same time. My hands have evolved and so has my ground game. I say alot that I like to start in the clinch but thats because its an area that needs to be improved.

Pauls 10% / 90% is so true. People get confused when you talk about things like trapping. They think you get attacked and you are looking to trap. That is so wrong! You train trapping range so that when you get attacked, you react! I think that most people think more like "toe to toe". I don't think about it. I'm schooled on the ground so its not a worry for me. I can afford to work upstairs more.

Another thing I think people don't understand about trapping. I upoad a picture. Its just a pose. Theres no way you can really show something great in something that is so one dimensional.

When I stared this thread I thought people were going to say it dosen't work because in the other treads I hear so much caca about what dosen't work!

About "the boxing range", I use it with Jujitsu on the ground and everything in between. But it may not be considered trapping by others definitions. But the sensitivity definately enahances all ranges!

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Good points from everyone.

I agree with Mike that "trapping" is a range. However from my training I have found that trapping has to be trained much more alive than many people tend to do.
Too many people spend their time doing hubud drills, chi sao, and even "simulated" headbutt, knee, and elbow drills.
In order to be good at the "trapping" (or clinching) range, you've got to spar there with 100% resistence. It's the same for grappling, and the same for striking.

I hear way too much talk about "I'll beat them in trapping range!" from people who don't realistically spar there. Imagine an opponent who is bigger and stronger then you. His neck is thick, if you get close to him, he'll lock you up, body slam you, throw hard shots from all angles if you attempt to clinch him... and if you do clinch him he'll whizzer you down to the floor before you can even establish a base. He's great in the grappling range, and the punching range...... now try to "straight blast him and grab his neck" and see what happens. See how easy it is....

Trapping range has to be sparred realistically in order for it to be effective for you. At least if you want to establish the range with a formidable opponent.
The straightblast, for example, needs to be backed up with a lot of power, speed, and strength to get someone backpeddling. If you don't develop that tool power-wise, strength-wise, etc. chances are it will NOT do much except piss off a strong opponent.
(I prefer a boxing type blast to the traditional way due to the power you get from it.)

For the most part... getting close to a wild adversary is a hair-raising experience. People will launch blows at you, tackle you, uppercut you, push you away into punches, slam you into walls, etc. You've got to be able to handle that kind of aggression.

It is NOT easy to get into trapping range with someone (if they're good) unless you train trapping range just as realistically as people train grappling and kickboxing. It has to be with uncooperative opponents, and it has to be in full out sparring a lot of the times.

My 2 cents.

Ryu

[robertlee]

RYU Good for thought on trapping. That is why I say if it happens you did it. As a range can not think range in combat it changes fast. You just do so that you can. And trapping is hard to set up in a fast paced fight. When it presents itself and you go to traps yes even the big person its up to the person to get it off or it wont happen and on to something else. Range just sets the use of tools. Traping range is also close punching range in the boxing concept. . BUT you are very right tools have to be trained to work. After that is doing and keeping the rust off. But when you spar you dont say ok I will trap now. It just happens Each range is part of the next range. Seperate that and there is no range. Because two people fighting changes the distance back and forth to all ranges. The one the person fights best in will be the primary range. the others a part of the encounter. Trap when you trap hit when you can.

[MDVaughn]

Hey Ryu and Robertlee,

I agree with you guys a 100% trapping is just as articulate as the ground or kickboxing range. Sometimes can be more brutal. Thats why a lot of people don't like that range because it can hurt if you mess up. Another thing i agree with Ryu if it is proceeded with a straight blast it makes trapping range a hell of a lot easier cause you cause PAIN! However in training you don't always get to feel that because you have protective gear on and the training partner doesn't feel the pain. But it is great to spar their and get comfortable. Nice replys guys.

Mike Vaughn