Video certification

[Davidc316]

What's the general opinion here of people who gain martial arts instructor certificates by buying tuition videos then either turning up for a brief meeting to show what they've learned OR (worse still!) posting a video recording of themselves performing what was "taught" on the original tuition video?

Is this an acceptable practice?

[ryanhall]

Is this an acceptable practice?

Absolutely not in my book

[eXcessiveForce]

If the person somehow managed to become a high enough caliber practitioner and feels the need to buy a certificate why not. Do I think that happens, no. Do I think people who wanted to be recongnized but do not have the skill will do it. then yes.

It is morally wrong to let a fool keep his money

I do however have a friend that trained with a master but did not get to finish his training.

He has contacted that master but cannot travel very often to work out with him. So they do the video tape thing. But the master made him start from the begining to show he knew the old material. But he still must travel to the masters school from time to time to do the material for the master. If you are doing it to learn the material that is impractical for you to train in at its location then what alternative do you have?

[Davidc316]

Yes- I hear what you're saying guys.

Personally, I have no problem at all with the idea of using tuition videos to learn martial arts.

The thing that I am perhaps less comfortable with is the idea of people gaining instructor certificates via the video route. That's a different ball game altogether.

From what I can gather this practice is very widespread and is an increasingly common method that people are using to gain instructor's certificates.

[akja]

Originally posted by Davidc316
Yes- I hear what you're saying guys.

Personally, I have no problem at all with the idea of using tuition videos to learn martial arts.

The thing that I am perhaps less comfortable with is the idea of people gaining instructor certificates via the video route. That's a different ball game altogether.

From what I can gather this practice is very widespread and is an increasingly common method that people are using to gain instructor's certificates.

This is true. The practice came to be to recruit and grow organizations. There are many people out there with long training histories and just never received a blackbelt.

In that scenario. Who would you rather train from a 2 year black belt or someone with more training and without the blackbelt?

You don't have to answer that, your just supposed to consider the facts. In JKD technically certification is not necisary, Bruce quit certifing. Its up to the individual instructors. My Sifu was not certified. Nor was his father, who was a student of James Lee. Who is a better instructor between my Sifu and his father and the 2nd and 3rd generation instructors out there?

WE can't answer that, because we don't know all the parties involved. But I'm just putting out there that there are differant reasons to go after the paperwork. Not just deception.

The problem is people with "no experience" achieveing rank to quickly , whether its in class or video, its really the same thing.

[Kirves]

What do you think about Burton's JKDU video curriculum and certification?

Have you read the column he wrote about his experiences with distance video training students?

[akja]

Originally posted by Kirves
What do you think about Burton's JKDU video curriculum and certification?

Have you read the column he wrote about his experiences with distance video training students?

No, what about it?

[Davidc316]

For akja-

Ok, it sounds like you've came out with a great example of someone for whom the video route would be a good thing.

But as you pointed out, the whole problem is the fact that although there may be a handful of genuinely talented and sincere practitioners gaining certificates this way, the whole system is wide open to corruption.

I would be very interested to know what percentage of people who pay their fees and go down the video route actually get turned down and told "sorry Mr, but you're not good enough."

I suspect that hardly anyone ever has these problems!

The case of Jeet Kune Do is, I think, a very unique and yet a very sad story. There is every reason for JKD to become the worlds most popular martial art. It has a lot going for it (not least its' association with Bruce Lee!) and there are a lot of things that separate JKD from most other martial arts. But unfortunately, the world of JKD of plagued with internal political wrangling. Not only that, to make matters even worse there is an ever increasing new generation of video-taught instructors who are on the scene, ruthlessly cashing in on Bruce Lee's name.

As a result of all of this, the JKD world is suffering enormously. There is, as yet, no single undisputed JKD governing body. Nobody can agree on who should make the ultimate decisions about how JKD should be taught. The entire JKD scene has became a chaotic free for all! This is a shame cos there are certainly some very hard working and talented instructor's out there- as I suspect yours is. The trouble is that all the good JKD instructors are being drowned admist all the bullshit that's been left behind from the phonies.

The other day I was talking on this very forum to a person who is (I think) going down the video route and who is due to be "tested" to see if he can get his JKD instructor's certificate. I asked this person a question about Kali (does it not concern him that there is very little documented evidence that Bruce Lee studied Kali for any great period of time?). Anyway, the guy's response was to say that he does not "give a shit about what Bruce Lee did or didn't study".

So, in other words, this person is clearly going to base his entire Jeet Kune Do career of nothing more than a few vague philosophical principles that are mentioned in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. To him, Jeet Kune Do is little more than a licence to learn lots of different styles of martial arts. This is SHOCKING, it is SAD and I am absolutely certain that it is not what Bruce Lee would have wanted when he created Jeet Kune Do.

I've noticed one or two people in this forum slagging Karate. Now, I'm not a Karate guy and I don't want to become involved in that dispute, but I will say is this- the Karate people must gloat with delight when they see what a disorganised mess the world of JKD has become. I mean, for all the faults of Karate AT LEAST they have structure. At least they have unified governing bodies (for the various branches of Karate). At least they have disipline! The JKD world currently has none of these things.

As we speak there must be over a hundred Karate clubs for every Jeet Kune Do club. That's a very conseravtive estimate, and it's not surprizing when we consider the mess that the JKD world is currently in.

And yet, as you read this, there are hundreds of kids all over the world learning Kali, Escrima and Savate under the false pretense that they are learning "Bruce Lee's martial art".

I think the whole thing is very sad and if some order isn't restored soon, then I fear that Jeet Kune Do (as created by Bruce Lee) will be diluted out of existance within the next 50 years.

Just my opinion,

David

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"The other day I was talking on this very forum to a person who is (I think) going down the video route and who is due to be "tested" to see if he can get his JKD instructor's certificate. I asked this person a question about Kali (does it not concern him that there is very little documented evidence that Bruce Lee studied Kali for any great period of time?). Anyway, the guy's response was to say that he does not "give a shit about what Bruce Lee did or didn't study".

So, in other words, this person is clearly going to base his entire Jeet Kune Do career of nothing more than a few vague philosophical principles that are mentioned in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. To him, Jeet Kune Do is little more than a licence to learn lots of different styles of martial arts. This is SHOCKING, it is SAD and I am absolutely certain that it is not what Bruce Lee would have wanted when he created Jeet Kune Do. "


I am the person you talked to on the JKD forum "sir", and I find it appalling that after the board sided with me on that issue that you have to come onto this one and try and discredit me or my training. I am not doing a "video course" I have trained with Paul Vunak and Thom Cruse on numerous occassions, I have been a part of Carlos Machado's BJJ academy, and have been sparring full contact most of my adult life.

If you are representive of the "OJKD" people, then I am sorry to say that it is YOU and your camp who are the sad ones. I hope for the sake of the other JKD people out there that your disrespectful antics are yours alone.

I will post my "response" to your question. Then I will post the "responses" of the other people of the JKD board.
Then I will post (yet again) my history of training.

Just to make sure you don't "misunderstand" again.


Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

My real reply to mr. David

"On the one hand you say "one shouldn't give a shit about what Bruce Lee did or didn't study", but on the other hand, like many thousands of other concept-based JKD practitioners you have sheepishly studied Kali simply because Dan Inosanto indirectly pressured you into learning it. "


I said in my other post that I study kali because I find its knife and stickwork functional. I most certainly don't study it because Dan Inosanto wants me to.
I am someone who researches what people give me. I don't accept it as blind faith. Not from Bruce, not from Dan, not from Paul Vunak.
I dissect things these people teach all the time to see how well I can learn it, how well I can perform it under pressure, etc. I've come away with many differences from these men regardless whether they're my "sifu" or not.
I don't believe the straightblast is some ultimate technique for example, I think in order to do it right you must have power behind it, and you cannot "roll" your fists.
I do not think headbutts, knees, and elbows are necessarily fight enders. I think the thai clinch is very vulnerable to a good takedown artist, I don't necessarily think "destructions" will work as good as some say they will. (All of this has come from full contact sparring experience, real fights, and other testing.)

I also study concepts from people that have nothing to do with Dan or Paul or Bruce....or JKD for that matter.
I research a lot of material from people like Sammy Franco and Richard Dimitri, I spend lots of time on adrenaline dump management, pre-fight psychology, first-strike principles, firearms, OC spray, etc.
I also spend a lot of time with judo and BJJ because of the very necessity of being a good groundfighter. Plus I train grappling while defending a blade, pulling blades, on the ground with multiple people, etc.

There is mounds and mounds of realistic, athletic, performance based training out there.
My goal is to protect myself and other people. Not to do "JKD"

So I don't think I'm sheepishly being force fed anything.

Ryu


__________________
No longer a martial artist with an identity crisis.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Ryan Hall's (moderator of this board) response to me.

Great post, Ryu.

NOTE TO FORUM: Read Ryu's post a couple times, let it sink in. Learn something from it. I would hesitate to tell you to copy what he does, but you could sure do a lot worse.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

David's "response" to me.... after my post.

"I think this conversation has gone as far as it's going to go."

[Ryu (JKD?)]

My training.
I've posted it just three threads down.

"I started training JKD in 1993. But it was about 1996 when I began being officially taught. My first real teacher was Thom Cruse (whose under Paul Vunak)
I kept up the training with others who were doing the same, and was able to go down to LA in 1998 to train with Paul for a time. After that I joined Carlos Machado's BJJ academy, and moved onto a judo school.

I'd say it's taken me.... maybe 7 years to get to this. 10 if you count the three years of just solo training without a guide. "


David, I sincerely hope you try and learn about someone's actual training before you go off making up stories about them.
The proof is all here on this board.
I think that fact that you ran away from the discussion of the JKD board, and then tried to undermine what I said on this one is truly pathetic.

I hope others see things the same now as I do.

Ryu

[Davidc316]

Ryu,

You are acting extremely defensively for someone who has apparently got the upper hand over a clueless idiot like me who has just "ran away" from the other forum.

Before going any further, can we please establish some facts...

Ok, the person who is going to certify you (or at least, give you some kind of certification test) is called Paul Vunak. Is that correct?

Ok, how much time have you spent training with Paul Vunak?

Third, question... does Paul Vunak (who I admit to not knowing much about) sell Jeet Kune Do tuition videos via the Internet?

Four question- have you purchased and studied any of these videos (if they exist)?

Fifth question- when you go for your certification tests will you be tested on matters which are addressed in any JKD instructional videos?

END

I stress that this is not an attack, nor a defence. This is merely an attempt to establish some facts before I offer a more full response.

I remain on standby and hope to hear from you.

[akja]

Davidc316,

I would like to know where you got your training from and who that person got their training from?

From what I see and hear. you are trying to "Speak UP" on an issue that can't be solved much less be solved from your country. This is not an issue of countries. I'm just saying that your questioning someones training who has access to a great JKD instructor. But it would seem if there was a "watered down" effect anywhere. It would be in your part of the world worse than in our part of the world.

Also it is obvious you are trying to promote your site. It really is just another fan site, with no instructional worth and mixed truth with fiction.

TRUTH IN POINT:
Heres a quote from you site "Although Howard confesses to having never done any weight-training in his life, he is extremely powerful and is reputed as having a natural Bruce Lee-like speed base. Bruce Lee's first student, Jessie Glover, once described Howard Williams as "Bruce and James Lee's best student from the Oakland period...a fast, powerful puncher and kicker who can move like Bruce."."

First Jesse Glover did not even complete his training in Seattle much less have anything to do with the "Oakland School."

How do I know this? Because My Sifus father was James Lees "FIRST" student since before the Oakland school all the way up until James Lee passed away.

http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

Then you state: "2. We will not include people who merely had a brief encounter with Bruce Lee. Likewise, we will not include people who merely trained with Bruce Lee for a very short period of time"

and follow down the page some more and you state: "As is the case with Mohammed Ali, Bruce Lee never got a chance to meet Jack Dempsey in person. However, there is irrifutable effidence that Bruce Lee was influenced by Jack Dempsey's boxing techniques. Some of Bruce Lee's original students (eg, Joe Lewis) have claimed that on occassion, Bruce Lee would begin his classes by reviewing tapes of Jack Dempsey fights- further proof that Bruce Lee was a scholar of both Eastern and Western fighting methods! "

I'm confused! Joe Lewis's training was "BRIEF" which you said you would not include.

Your sites "crap" is no differant or better than any any "crap" out there.

Now I showed you the link of who trained me. And Ryu's training is from Vunak.

SO WHO TRAINED YOU? AND WHO TRAINED THEM?