The word is not the thing!

[Lost Ronin]

I have studied JKD concepts for a while now, and I have lately become aware of the " Original vs. Concepts" JKD argument. I honestly think that there is no such thing as original JKD. Because JKD is not a collection of techniques or philosophies. JKD is an ongoing concept of spiritual,physical and martial growth. The people who are clinging to Bruce Lee's fighting methodology and claim that it's the "true" JKD are doing exactly what Bruce didn't want them to do, they are sticking to a doctrine and claiming it as the only truth. And yet, if you ever hear them talk about traditional stylists, they make it seem like they are worlds apart. It's essentially the same thing, except you are using Bruce Lee's methodology and philosophy, there is very little to no difference between these guys and Karate or Aikido people! I am not claiming to be 100% right, but this is what I believe to be true. I don't want to criticize or offend anybody, I am just trying to make people look at this situation from a different view point.

[yenhoi]

It seems some of the guys who trained under Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto disagree with you and each other.

But your right, it doesnt matter, it makes no difference: you train, you put in the hours, you break things, you sweat, you bleed, its your skill.

[David M.]

JKD as a system...

In my limited and inexperience opinion, JKD IS a system, for no matter what you do, you are trying to learn/discover new and better ways to move--be it dancing or skydiving or horseback riding. In JKD you learn the hook or cork-screw or stance of some type. Guess what: in Goju or Kenpo you do the same.

To further complicate the argument, Kenpo is as much a mutt as JKD. Ha. I will concede, however, that JKD encourages the practitioner to mold the 'system' to him/herself, whereas other 'hard' systems probably don't encourage it, even though it may be allowed.

[akja]

There should not be a division because one is not complete without the other. As far as saying who is true, everybody thinks thats theres is true and they are right because the truth in JKD is in ourselves.

But for me to say my JKD is truth for you is wrong. Aside from who claims to have the "truth." Some people do get punished "verbally" for not evolving the way others have.

We have have to remember that there were 3 schools each run by differant instructors and each were in a differant phase of the evoloutionary process of JKD.

I've become much more open to my JKD with the help of the forums. But my lineage comes from the Oakland school, so I understand why some will beleive the way they beleive.

Lost Ronin, you would be spending your time better (this not a personal attck) to not worry about anybody elses "truth in JKD." Because even someone from your class, in time his truth will be differant from yours too.

In the end, you will see, that we all are still one!!

[robertlee]

Many atrs have the same or simular tools of use. How they are taught to be used . And how well you learn to use them makes a world of difference. Go ju has a vertical punch also. But how often do they train its use. Outside of kata training or bunki. kisokumite. JKD is not the whole answer as any atr is not . The person represents what the do. All arts dont explore the use as well as other arts do. JKD when done without. drills The spar its done as the person can do. Thats there jkd. Freedom brings each art into use. when you start doing. Thats the seperater of arts doing.

[swan104]

Re: The word is not the thing!

Originally posted by Lost Ronin
I have studied JKD concepts for a while now, and I have lately become aware of the " Original vs. Concepts" JKD argument. I honestly think that there is no such thing as original JKD. Because JKD is not a collection of techniques or philosophies. JKD is an ongoing concept of spiritual,physical and martial growth. The people who are clinging to Bruce Lee's fighting methodology and claim that it's the "true" JKD are doing exactly what Bruce didn't want them to do, they are sticking to a doctrine and claiming it as the only truth. And yet, if you ever hear them talk about traditional stylists, they make it seem like they are worlds apart. It's essentially the same thing, except you are using Bruce Lee's methodology and philosophy, there is very little to no difference between these guys and Karate or Aikido people! I am not claiming to be 100% right, but this is what I believe to be true. I don't want to criticize or offend anybody, I am just trying to make people look at this situation from a different view point.

I see JKD concepts, and what I learn as a learning tool. There has to be some structured approach in learning to fight, and thats where the system is. I think the only difference in the "original v. concepts" argument (which I believe is stupid anyway) is that the training methods differ. However, they all try to lead to one goal for the individual - complete efficiency in combat according to your own personal attributes.

I think this principle can be seen in other sports and disciplines. In football/soccer, all footballers start off learning the same basics - how to pass the ball, how to head the ball, how to chip etc etc. from a very early age. This is the foundation they will need to build on their skills. Overtime, the footballers will decide which position they are more suited to - goalkeeping, defence, midfield etc. This can only be done by analysing your own personal attributes.

I feel the same is in JKD, which is why we are taught to look at the principles behind each art in order to grasp the principles and views of that way of fighting.

You've probably heard all this before anyway! As with Lost Ronin's post, I don't claim to have all the answers, but from my study of JKD so far, this is what I feel. I may change my mind tomorrow though! If Bruce did it, then why can't we all?? Its our own bodies! :P


Steven

[Lost Ronin]

Re: Re: The word is not the thing!

Originally posted by swan104


I see JKD concepts, and what I learn as a learning tool. There has to be some structured approach in learning to fight, and thats where the system is. I think the only difference in the "original v. concepts" argument (which I believe is stupid anyway) is that the training methods differ. However, they all try to lead to one goal for the individual - complete efficiency in combat according to your own personal attributes.

I think this principle can be seen in other sports and disciplines. In football/soccer, all footballers start off learning the same basics - how to pass the ball, how to head the ball, how to chip etc etc. from a very early age. This is the foundation they will need to build on their skills. Overtime, the footballers will decide which position they are more suited to - goalkeeping, defence, midfield etc. This can only be done by analysing your own personal attributes.

I feel the same is in JKD, which is why we are taught to look at the principles behind each art in order to grasp the principles and views of that way of fighting.

You've probably heard all this before anyway! As with Lost Ronin's post, I don't claim to have all the answers, but from my study of JKD so far, this is what I feel. I may change my mind tomorrow though! If Bruce did it, then why can't we all?? Its our own bodies! :P


Steven

I didn't mean that you couldn't use Bruce Lee's methodology, what I meant was that you shouldn't claim that methodology as the one and only truth. I am a big Bruce Lee fan, and I use some of his methodology in my personal repertoire,( gotta love that straight blast!) But some people are clinging to it and discrediting anything else that doesn't resemble it, that my friend, is not JKD.

[swan104]

Re: Re: Re: The word is not the thing!

Originally posted by Lost Ronin

I didn't mean that you couldn't use Bruce Lee's methodology, what I meant was that you shouldn't claim that methodology as the one and only truth. I am a big Bruce Lee fan, and I use some of his methodology in my personal repertoire,( gotta love that straight blast!) But some people are clinging to it and discrediting anything else that doesn't resemble it, that my friend, is not JKD.

I do agree completely. I think if we, as "students of JKD" need to look at other systems for answers, and to improve ourselves. At the end of the day, martial arts is about individual growth and development (and kicking ass as well!! ).

I believe the JKD we studied would be a lot worse without the grappling cirriculum (BJJ/Vale Tudo, Catch Wrestling, Sombo, Shoot etc) that has been added. I'm not saying grappling was neglected in the 1960s when JKD was first concepted, but we can all learn a lot from these grappling systems, and the way they are taught.

In another post, someone mentioned that Bruce took a current individuals skills, and built on it. It didn't matter whether he was a boxer, wrestler etc. Ronin, I think that is what you are trying to say. Ultimately, the system doesn't matter but the philosophy should always be there.

I do believe that if you can, you should have a look at the technical side behind JKD. I think from studying this, you do learn important principles that make JKD what it is eg. economy in motion, non-telegraphy etc etc. The reason I say this was because I used to study kung fu, but I never would have grapsed these principles without studying it first hand (but maybe I was just stupid!!). An example of this would be the JKD hook kick. When I first saw that, I thought it was just a roundhouse kick. However, you do learn that it is a lot more direct. That isn't something I could have learnt from studying kung fu, and just embracing the philosophy of JKD.

I've rambled on a it! Does that make sense??

Steven

[auto]

The only thing I don't want to see happen to JKD is what happened to Christianity. You have one christianity and one Christ figure and then 1,500 different denominations-each and everyone correct in and of itself. If you guys don't "cut it out" soon we will have ten and then twenty ,thirty, fourty different JKD's- each and everyone correct in and of itself. The Best thing that could happen to JKD is to just let it go. Then each and every person could figure out what works best for themselves. I love JKD but the arguing over it has gotten out of hand big time.