Pissed off Instructors

[platinum_angel]

so lizard you don't think it was wrong for hitler to comit genecide. are you a nazi.

whoa did i strike a nerve shiz

[Szczepankiewicz]

Not especially. I would however like you to point out where I lost so I can better prepare for the next time I have to go round and round to point out the obvious.

I enjoy debating to the point of the debate itself. As Liz stated and Sage backed him up, there is no right or wrong, collectively or individually, so I really couldn't have lost. Nor could I have won.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Originally posted by Lizard
"Right and wrong is a matter of opinion.

No it's not. It's based on factual evidence, scientific conclusion, historical accuracy, and having correct information about any given subject of situation.



toodles.

Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Originally posted by Great Sage
Let me clarify what Lizard may be trying to say... This is a well-known idea in philosophy: Good and evil DO NOT exist in nature, but in the confines of human thought. That is, what someone perceives as right or wrong is never really right or wrong.

“Omnipotence is often defined as the "power to do anything and everything that is possible" This is taken to mean logically possible - (God cannot make 2+2=5) As McCloskey and others (Joyce) have noted, this is not a limitation on God's power, since things which are logically impossible (square circles) are "non-things" — Michael J. Connelly

Nah, not true. I mean depending on the definitions you're using for good and evil. There is right and wrong all over nature. Whether or not they are a part of nature isn't the issue.
For example, "right" and "wrong" conduct within the natural world lead to different effects of nature.
If a wolf does whatever he feels like from the pack, the pack inevitably will either 1. fall or 2. turn on the wolf.
There are sets of rules and morals to be followed even in the animal kingdom. Hell, biologists and zoologists see it all the time.

Right and wrong is complicated. Not non-existent.
The problem many people face is that they look for an easy answer to complex issues when there may be none.

Right and wrong exist in math, biology, science, philosophy, morality, astronomy, cooking, herbology, etc.
It's all over nature.

In order to find what is truly "right" in the situation takes some careful understanding, and some good insight. Based on scientific criteria, "right and wrong" must be held up to the correct facts, historical accuracies, proper cultural understanding, etc. etc.

This does NOT mean right and wrong is relative. Not in the least. It simply means finding what is right requires MORE than just opinion. It requires just as much effort as any other complex issue in nature.


Take care now.

Ryu

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Oh, and I think what needs to be mentioned also is that where "morality" comes from has no issue. What matters is that "morality" is here, and it is a huge (if not the biggest) aspect of human existence.

So regardless if it's "God-sent" or "man-made" ....morality is human. Therefore we must find proper ways to understand, measure, and continue it.

Otherwise.....well ask the wolves.

Ryu

[Lizard]

Did Hitler hurt me? No. Does he pose a threat to me? No. Does genocide hurt me? Not likely. But wiping out an entire race is a waste of energy and also reduces genetic variation. So I suppose Hitler was generaly "wrong". He wanted to breed humans to make them superior (which I have nothing against) but his idea of superiority was foolish. He also didn't understand genetics and so his attempts were largely unsuccessful. It would be interesting to test the genetics of german people to see if they have less genetic diseases, if so then the germans might consider him to have been "right" in some of his actions. Let's not forget how much he improved the german economy. See, all a matter of opinion.

[Lizard]

Have you ever noticed how everyone considers Hitler to be the ultimate Evil without even thinking about it for themselves? It's like the way people always assume that if Bruce Lee said something about martial arts it must be correct and cannot be argued with. That's human nature.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

"See, all a matter of opinion."

Nah, these are all measurable accounts. You can easily study how correct the genetic aspects of Germans actually were scientifically, and the economy issues scientifically as well.


Opinion means very little in the realm of factual evidence.

Hitler is a prime example of an opinion of "rightness" being proven wrong by the facts of history, science, universal human morals, and political study.

Just because he thought he was "right" does not make "Rightness" relative or non-existent. It simply means Hitler's opinion on what was "right" was incorrect.

Hmmmm... a good example might be the concept of "friendship."
Say I am good friends with Sam. I try to help Sam, give him emotional support, spend time with him, etc. Sam, on the other hand, stabs me in the back, lies to me, cheats, steals from me, and hurts me in many different ways. Sam obviously is not my "friend."

This does not mean friendship is non-existent or relative. It simply means Sam didn't follow the needed guidelines of what it takes to be engaged in "friendship."

The advantage that Moral Absolutists (for lack of a better word, because I don't think everything is absolute all the time) have over Moral relativists....is that moral relativity has a very strong inclination to move into nihilistic acceptance of negative behaviors and damaging theories and actions.

In a world where "right and wrong" don't exist, it becomes harder and harder to hold people responsible for their actions. In this way, moral relativity can (and a lot of times does) lead to nihilism. And acceptance of damaging behavior. This of course is not always the case, and moral relativists DO have points that they are trying to make such as morality in given situations might be harder to truly understand unless lots of effort is given to doing so.

What is funny about Moral relativism and Moral nihilism is the effort its proponents give forth to change the minds of others
IF right and wrong truly didn't exist....why even want other people to believe your point of view? Why even argue it?

This being said, I'd like to also say that Moral Absolutism runs the very real risk of turning into a classic cult-like structure, or a totalitarian type of mentality...
this is just as bad (if not worse) than blindly accepting negative behavior as okay.
The only advantage to the Moral Absolutist though is that since he believes morality is a higher human law than simple opinion, he is more inclined to try and find the best facts, and understandings of what the most positive thing to do in a given situation would be.


Whhoo! That's a mouthful for me.

I'd just like to say that I'm "right" and you're all wrong.!

Just kidding.

Take care,
Ryu

[platinum_angel]

well said

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Thanks.

[Szczepankiewicz]

I disagree.

Sage and Liz are still right. Or are they wrong. Oh hell, I guess it really doesn't matter after all. Does it?

[Lizard]

What is moral right and wrong then? It was created by people, it varies from person to person, it seems to be a measure of whether or not something helps or hinders us. I look at the action or idea, decide whether or not it helps me, if it does then it is right, if not then it is wrong. We all do it, that is what right and wrong are, it's the way in which the human brain works, encourage what helps you (right) discourage what does not (wrong), people who share your views on right and wrong will help you to do this, they are "good", people who have opposite views of good and evil will work against your interests, they are "evil".

If I convince everyone that I am right then it will make me happy.
Convincing everyone that I am right is therefore "right"

Great sage is also trying to convince people that I am right.
This helps me so in my opinion he is "good"

Arguing against me prevents people from believing what I say.
Arguing with me is therefore "wrong" in my opinion

Ryu is arguing with me but has SOME similar views on what is "right and what is "wrong"
So you see Ryu, from my point of view you are not completely "evil" but you are doing "wrong"

[Great Sage]

Well said Lizard...

Ryu, I’m afraid your logic if flawed by ideologies of nature. In nature, only the strongest survive... There is no lion who will take pity on a gazelle. A lion is not wrong by killing it’s prey, nor is the prey innocent. A stray lion, or wolf for that matter, is not wronged by his decisions... Animals make decisions based on survival needs, not morals.

The Law of Halfs states that there are certain givens in nature where there are two conclusive results... Hence, 1+1=2 and animals can still have no morals.

Ryu qoutes: “In a world where "right and wrong" don't exist, it becomes harder and harder to hold people responsible for their actions. In this way, moral relativity can (and a lot of times does) lead to nihilism. And acceptance of damaging behavior. This of course is not always the case, and moral relativists DO have points that they are trying to make such as morality in given situations might be harder to truly understand unless lots of effort is given to doing so.”

Right and wrong are human ideas and therefore we abide by them because they sanction us. It does not mean they are universal truths. Each society will have their own idea of right or wrong. Each individual will have their own idea... But there is a general consensus, or set of laws to govern our human perception of right or wrong. Can you honestly say that what humans believe to be right or wrong are actually right or wrong? I think not. Again, it’s a human thought that we use to govern ourselves.

Ryu qoutes: “Right and wrong exist in math, biology, science, philosophy, morality, astronomy, cooking, herbology, etc.
It's all over nature.

In order to find what is truly "right" in the situation takes some careful understanding, and some good insight. Based on scientific criteria, "right and wrong" must be held up to the correct facts, historical accuracies, proper cultural understanding, etc. etc.

This does NOT mean right and wrong is relative. Not in the least. It simply means finding what is right requires MORE than just opinion. It requires just as much effort as any other complex issue in nature.”

Again, I have to disagree. These are all human assumptions of what right and wrong are. In the human thought process, ideas can lead us to believe someone is right or wrong, but outside of our minds, it may be a different view. History, science and math — all that proves is what we believe... Is a tree really called a tree? NO... but it is an object and we are right in assuming that, so we can give it a name. We think it’s a tree now because what we believe is right. We BELIEVE so...

Ryu believes he is right, Lizard believes himself right... Who's right? My right may be totally different from your right, because no two humans share the same emotions. Thus, we rely on opinions. Is it right for me to feel this way, may be, may be not... But that's a human thought.

[Szczepankiewicz]

There is no spoon.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by Szczepankiewicz
There is no spoon.

Then you can't eat soup.