Joe Lewis is a Punk...

[Lost Ronin]

Whats a matter Joe, not feeling special?

Well, I had read some stuff said by Joe Lewis, but if all that stuff that great sage wrote was true, then he truly is full of himself. I'm gonna be honest, Bruce Lee was a human being, plain and simple, he wasn't unbeatable, but at the same time I doubt that going round and round with Lee would have been a walk in the park, (far from it actually). I don't know why Joe Lewis is talking so much smack, most of his "dominating" of the karate circuit was done in point matches (full contact my ass). Why the hell would Bruce Lee be a non-combat martial artist? If you ever take even a look at the Tao of JKD or any other of his personal notes, you will notice that all of his methods, concepts, etc. were geared for fighting and self-defense. I have an article on Black Belt magazine where Joe Lewis is showing point sparring strategies!? I've met people like this before, they are really common in the martial art world, they don't feel special so they have to whine and bitch to get some attention *whaa whaa whaa, look at me, I'm good too!* Sad, oh yeah, if you look at Bruce Lee's personal diaries, you will see that he taught Joe Lewis the same way that he did Chuck Norris, on a personal class basis that usually only lasted two hours, I smell B.S here...

[brokenelbow]

The guy doesn't need to do that. It's just a lack of respect on his part. Maybe he can still fight, but that doesn't give him the right to mouth off like that.

So it's OK to mouth off like that on martial arts forums but Lewis can't do it in print?

[Great Sage]

jukado1,

I'd like to respond to argument... You say that you've worked with Howard Jackson... Mr. Jackson has nothing but good things to say about Bruce Lee... Bruce and Howard met several times at tournaments. I've worked with both Chuck Norris and Jhoon Rhee, both knew Bruce Lee well and shared their experiences. BRUCE LEE WAS NOT A JOKE.

Each time I read something about Joe "Blow" Lewis, it's always the same crap - how Bruce Lee wasn't all that great. Well, Joe, get over it, because Bruce Lee is an icon and you aren't.

By the way, if anyone has ever looked into Joe Lewis' fighting applications, they're almost identical to JKD. This is from a man who studied Okinawan Karate. He's never fought in Thailand, Pride, UFC or anything worthy of being called a great fighter, maybe a tournament fighter.

[brokenelbow]

He's never fought in Thailand, Pride, UFC or anything worthy of being called a great fighter, maybe a tournament fighter.

Following that logic Bruce Lee wouldn't even be a tournament fighter. Lee never had a stable of champions like many modern gyms now have, so where does that put him?

Well, Joe, get over it, because Bruce Lee is an icon and you aren't.

That could be. Being an icon helps gloss over many shortcomings. But Lewis is likely trying to establish what he believes to be his rightful place in martial arts history.

[ryanhall]

That could be. Being an icon helps gloss over many shortcomings. But Lewis is likely trying to establish what he believes to be his rightful place in martial arts history.

The MA world would be a much better place if people were less concerned with their own warped perception of their value and more concerned with their actual worth.

[brokenelbow]

I agree Ryan, but it's also harmful to raise someones worth above what it should be. Often the way people iconize Bruce Lee is worse than the way traditional martial artists iconize some long dead master. The more time that goes by the more JKD people sound like traditionalists. Do we really know how good a fighter he was using todays metrics? No. Will we ever know? No.

I think to totally dismiss Lewis' rant about Lee right off is off. First we'd have to check if all the good fighters fit Lewis' ideal, and if they do then see if Lee matches those same attributes. But we'll never really know if Bruce Lee was a great fighter or even a good fighter without seeing him fight.

[Lost Ronin]

That is a good point...

Originally posted by brokenelbow
Often the way people iconize Bruce Lee is worse than the way traditional martial artists iconize some long dead master. The more time that goes by the more JKD people sound like traditionalists. Do we really know how good a fighter he was using todays metrics? No. Will we ever know? No... But we'll never really know if Bruce Lee was a great fighter or even a good fighter without seeing him fight.

Even though I am a very big Bruce Lee fan and admirer I have to agree with broken elbow, people are idolizing Bruce and his methods too much. To a point where they are not really researching their own experience but just trying to follow in his footsteps (the same thing that he didn't want happening). But I still think that Lewis is a dumbass, analytic criticism is one thing, whining like a bitch and totally discrediting a dead man who can't reply to those claims is another.

[jukado1]

Words without knowldge are noise.

For those of you here for intelegent martial arts talk this post and thread won't be it. the tones of great sage, and lost ronins posts are more then i'm willing to accept. many small people attempt to raise their stature by attacking those who have accomplished, just as some slob washing dishes for minumum wage will call george bush a moron,, WHICH ONE IS SUCCESFUL? thare are doers and talkers, Joe Lewis is a doer, he is in great demand to travel the country/world teaching martial artest how to improve, great sage, lost ronin, WHAT HAVE YOU ACCOMPLISHED?? Do you know joe? have you talked with him? have you trained with him? is joe egotistical, YES, but all champions/winners are. some champions will hide their ego and say, "i'll do my best, but he's very good." but if you think that inside a champion's not thinking, " this fool wants to fight me, HE'S CRAZY." your wrong. without ego to push them selfs, a fighter can't push themselves to be the best, joe does not spend all day calling the media asking will you do a story on me? because joe is a martial arts name, the media go to him, not folks like yourselves or me who no one has ever heard of. joe is opinienated and honest, when he is asked a ? he gives the awnser that he believes, not what is politicly correct. when asked about bruce lee, joe answerd it as fighter about fighter, BY THE WAY, where in my post did i or anybody else say bruce lee was a joke????? concerning Howard Jackson, howards e-mail is howardjackson@worldblackbelt.com howard is a close personal friend and former roommate, i first met howard when he started working out with joe at a tracy's/Joe Lewis karate school i was teaching at in hollywood calif. howard and joe were sparring partners for a couple of years, and are still friends. so when you get a chance drop howard an e-mail and ask him how far joe "blow" lewis's head is up his ass. by the way lost ronin stay lost, this is the 2nd board i've found you bashing joe lewis due to your close personal knowldge of bruce lee, and your still incorrect with all you say. as to joe tournament, bruce street. bruce lee tought princaples that apply to all types of fighting, he used joe to demo the fact he's stuff worked, and since you can't go walking down the street beating people up for demo purpuses, they used first tournaments, then joe began full-contact karate, to show that bruces methods work. as far as self-defense, joe was teaching me these princaples and showing me how to make them work in self-defense, tournaments, and full-contact. i'm sorry about my poor writing but i'm a fighter not a writer, and a very medeocre fighter at that, in fact joe once said working with me was like bag work, but the bag was faster an had better movement. I don't claim to be the end all/ know all in martial arts skill and knowldge, but i also know b, s. when i read it. Dont take my words as facts, try to research the facts for yourselves and find out for yourselves. train hard, train smart.

[Tom Yum]

I think most people will agree that Lewis is an accomplished fighter. He used Bruce's principles against a traditional karate fighter in the start of full contact karate and the traditional crowd did not like him for it.

But what he says of Bruce are his opinions and strictly that.

[Tom Yum]

Ron Van Clief is no punk!!

Van Clief who is an 8th degree black belt in shaolin kempo (?) is an example of an old timer who put his money were his mouth is.

In one of the earlier UFCs he fought Royce Gracie and honorably lost. Van Clief landed a few kidney shots when he was in Gracies's guard and tried to keep the center line, but oterhwise he tapped out due to submission.

He was in excellent condition too.

[jukado1]

to lost ronin

Lost Ronin: i made a mistake, your statments are still wrong, but i thought you had said some things about joe and bruce lee on another board, i went back to check and it was someone else who was dising joe. i'm sorry for attacking you like that. train hard, train smart.

[Kingston]

Jukado1 your elitist views are dissapointing.

[Great Sage]

judoko1,

Here's some food for thought... You insist on logical reasoning, yet you seem to be lacking in that department.

First of all, my accomplishments have nothing to do with this thread. You keep insisting, "why it is so imperative I insult Joe Lewis?" Yet, that is the same reason for this thread. Why in several interviews, has Joe Lewis had such negative things to say to his former trainer?

There are several articles that document animosity by Joe Lewis towards Bruce Lee. That is a FACT that neither you nor Howard Jackson can deny. Yet, another FACT remains that Bruce Lee was special in a way that electrified those around him. If Bruce Lee was as normal as you and Joe elect, why would so many idolize him?

Obviously, there is enough truth to suggest that Bruce Lee was a special martial artist. If Joe Loser can't cope with it, that's his problem... However, he should keep his opinion to himself, especially about someone who's never said anything about him...
As I recall, Bruce Lee said that Joe Lewis was the greatest karate fighter of his time... I wish Lewis would prove that point.

[Lost Ronin]

In response to jukado's statement...

I have to agree with jukado on one thing, Joe Lewis is very opinionated, I don't know about him being honest, but I know that he's very opinionated. All I was saying was that Joe Lewis talks too much for his own good, if you wanna critique someone else's technique that's fine, but don't go around discrediting someone and elevating yourself with obviously egotistical statements. Bruce Lee's methods were far from perfect, I have his "FIGHTING METHODS" self-defense volume and it is filled with my personal notes about the weaknesess and strengths of his tactics and concepts. But that doesn't give him a right to tear Bruce down from the amazing martial artist he was to a "show guy" that was only interested in his looks that is pure B.S. I honestly couldn't give a rats ass about Joe Lewis' accomplishments, he was a point fighter and a full contact karate champ, that's cool. I'm not trying to elevate my self confidence by talking shit about an older dude that is a legendary martial artist, I'm not that kind of a guy, what bothers me about him is the fact that he is an ego maniac that hasn't set foot in the ring for decades and he talks like he owns everyone. Jukado, you talk about Joe Lewis being a doer, honestly, he hasn't done anything in quite a while, (I don't know everything about Lewis, but I do know that he fought some of the most talented practicioners of his time.) But honestly, if Joe Lewis and Alex Gong ever threw down, my money would be on Gong. That is the obvious choice, and no, I don't think it would be a good match because Joe Lewis is way past his prime and he shouldn't be in a ring. And just to disprove your point, I'm not a little prepubescent geek sitting here writing this, I'm currently training in hopes of participating in N.H.B events. I have practiced both traditional and non-traditional arts and I don't say anything unless I am pretty sure that I am right. I haven't said what I said about Joe Lewis for the sake of talking shit, I've said it because I believe that he crosses certain lines that he really shouldn't. I have no bad blood towards you jukado, but if many people say the same thing, it means either they all see something or they are all mistaken, and by the way Mr. Lewis talks, I doubt we are mistaken.

[jukado1]

joe lewis.

Well great sage: here we go again, great sage, all of your quotes from joe lewis about Bruce Lee have been over many years of interviews, and i did not see any insulting Bruce. it seems because Joe did not say Bruce was faster then a speeding bullet, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, and was unbeatable he was being disrespectful to the god of martial arts! Bruce Lee was a great martial artist, he was innovative, insightful, as good as any 140 pounder in the business, he was fast, strong, quick, he trained consistently and effectively, but most important was as Joe said, he was a great teacher, his principles are as valid today as they were when he first rocked the martial arts world. as far as fighting when did he prove it in the ring? many folks such as yourselfs are willing to promote some one to god status on hearsay, did you ever see bruce in person, i did, and he was awsome, but nothing that Joe said was incorrect, sometimes when some one dies young such as Bruce Lee, James Dean, Marlyn Monroe, their image changes in to a level even bigger then life, how great would Mohmaud Ali be if he had passed away after beating George Forman?
train hard, train smart. p.s. lost ronin: your post came in while i was trying to write this post, so let me ask you also to show me these terrible things Joe said about Bruce Lee.