Joe Lewis is a Punk...

[brokenelbow]

If Bruce Lee was as normal as you and Joe elect, why would so many idolize him?

Simple, he was a TV and movie star. As a kid my friends and I used to watch The Green Hornet and emulate Bruce Lee. Why because he looked better than the other guys around him. When we got older we went to see his movies and were impressed. Why, because once again he looked better than the other guys around him. Going back and watching everything from the famous Longstreet episode to the little bit of Game of Death he just doesn't look as impessive as I remembered, and the other guys around him look even worse. Anyways in my opinion Ji Han Jae would have whooped his butt.

Jukado, you talk about Joe Lewis being a doer, honestly, he hasn't done anything in quite a while,

Well Gene LaBell and Jhoon Rhee haven't done anything in quite a while either, so is their opinion also invalid? Once again that argument downgrades Bruce Lee's creds even more since at best he was only a coach and movie actor, and not a fighter by trade. Bruce Lee had talents but his talent as a fighter as we currently judge good fighters (ring fights) will never be established.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by brokenelbow
Simple, he was a TV and movie star. As a kid my friends and I used to watch The Green Hornet and emulate Bruce Lee. Why because he looked better than the other guys around him. When we got older we went to see his movies and were impressed. Why, because once again he looked better than the other guys around him. Going back and watching everything from the famous Longstreet episode to the little bit of Game of Death he just doesn't look as impessive as I remembered, and the other guys around him look even worse. Anyways in my opinion Ji Han Jae would have whooped his butt.

Hahaha... What an idiot... Apparently enough martial artists believed in him enough to learn under him, e.g. Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, Bob Wall, etc... These are not mere film advocates who simply idolized a film star. I'm talking about Martial artists who decided to follow Bruce Lee.

Ji Han Jae would have gotten his butt kicked... Gimme a break.

[/B][/QUOTE]Well Gene LaBell and Jhoon Rhee haven't done anything in quite a while either, so is their opinion also invalid? Once again that argument downgrades Bruce Lee's creds even more since at best he was only a coach and movie actor, and not a fighter by trade. Bruce Lee had talents but his talent as a fighter as we currently judge good fighters (ring fights) will never be established. [/B][/QUOTE]

Are you lame in the brain... Apparently you misunderstand. What have credentials anything to with this? Joe Lewis said these things, and I'm merely refuting them... stupid..hahaha

[jukado1]

Joe Lewis

Not so great sage: o.k. now that other people state an opinion were going to start calling them names, you since the start of this forum you have been blasting Joe Lewis, calling him all sorts of derogetory names, you have yet to show one thing that Joe has said that insults Bruce Lee, NOT saying that someone is the greatest of all time is NOT an insult. so once again please show me some of these vicious statements that Joe has said to put down Bruce Lee. in your case i don't care if you train at all.

Brokenelbow: if all you have ever seen of Bruce Lee is movies and television, you realy don't know how good Bruce was, and Bruce was very good, don't be like great sage and make assumptions without knowing all the facts. train hard, train smart.

[brokenelbow]

Great sage, I was replying to the quote "If Bruce Lee was as normal as you and Joe elect, why would so many idolize him?". I grew up on Bruce Lee and even as kids we could tell the difference between him and the other guys on the show and in the movies. That's why we "idolized" him.

Are you lame in the brain... Apparently you misunderstand. What have credentials anything to with this? Joe Lewis said these things, and I'm merely refuting them... stupid..hahaha

Read your own posts fanboy.

Ji Han Jae would have gotten his butt kicked... Gimme a break.

Let me ask you Great Sage, if Lee was in alive and in his prime today who couldn't he beat?

[Great Sage]

Yeah... Why don't both of you re-read my posts. NOWHERE is there mention that a person's credential is necessary to make a statement. We're not disputing a theory here, merely statements.

Juddoko1, so you're suggesting that telling someone they're not a fighter even though they've trained their whole life for fighting is not an insult? Gimme a break... I guess you don't have much experience in the field of literature. If we were to analyze one paragraph of Lewis' statements, we would find plenty of inclinations against Bruce Lee.

The FACT remains that many things were said in ignorance and I've made my point... It's time all of us moved on.

[brokenelbow]

The FACT remains that many things were said in ignorance and I've made my point... It's time all of us moved on.

Great Sage just tapped out!

[Lost Ronin]

The focus of my statements has been one simple thing, Joe Lewis should not talk the way he does about other martial artists if he does not plan to back himself up. It's not about being pissed off because he said Bruce wasn't so great, if he wants to say that then fine, let people decide if that's true or not. But, when he talks about a person who dedicated himself to the passionate study of self-defense, a man who pretty much re-examined the way that we study martial arts and how many of us see self-defense, and he simply dismisses him as an athletic looking actor that could punch and kick, then he pisses me off. You want an actor that is also skilled in martial arts? Fine, go look for Jackie Chan, he is skilled, but its obvious that he does what he does to enhance his show skills, which by the way are simply amazing. Bruce wasn't a God, I made it clear in a previous post, he was just a very special individual, you would have to be blind to not see his talent in both the big screen and his martial arts. To me that is the most offensive thing that Joe has said, I can look past the fact that he thinks he can kick the shit out of some very young and very talented competitors. I can look past the fact that he is obviously an ego-maniac (we all have a little of that in us.) But the fact that he is dismissing the teachings of a person who at one time probably considered him a trusted friend and student reflects traits of his character which I seriously dislike. That's like me being the apprentice of Pavaroti, learning as much as possible from him and then tearing all that he has taught to me apart and simply dismissing him as "just another Opera singer". It's allright to criticize, I do it all the time when I am looking at other people's curriculum, but one thing is to criticize techniques and another thing is to simply tell people that all I learned really wasn't that special and that I simply studied with a guy because I liked the way he thought. (Joe Lewis said that about Lee, check Great Sage's initial post.) That's all its about jukado, its about respect. I respect everyone's opinions, you can't deny that Lewis has also accomplished some great things, but he should give that same respect to Lee.

[Thai Bri]

Can you edit that into paragraphs? That way someone may read it. No offence.

[brokenelbow]

But, when he talks about a person who dedicated himself to the passionate study of self-defense, a man who pretty much re-examined the way that we study martial arts and how many of us see self-defense, and he simply dismisses him as an athletic looking actor that could punch and kick, then he pisses me off.

Many are passionate about their work, doesn't make them any better or any more correct than anyone else. If Bruce Lee wasn't a movie star he'd be some minor figure in martial arts history. Much of Lee's importance is a cultural icon, someone by whose celebrity was able to increase his awareness of martial arts.

But the fact that he is dismissing the teachings of a person who at one time probably considered him a trusted friend and student reflects traits of his character which I seriously dislike.

Lee wasn't the original thinker you think he was. Much of his material was derived from other sources. Lewis gives his opinion and also gives his reason for that opinion. Is he right? I don't know.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by brokenelbow
Many are passionate about their work, doesn't make them any better or any more correct than anyone else. If Bruce Lee wasn't a movie star he'd be some minor figure in martial arts history. Much of Lee's importance is a cultural icon, someone by whose celebrity was able to increase his awareness of martial arts.

Look at this BS... And I suppose a Nuclear Phsycist's opinion would be less credible than mine concerning fusion, according to your logic? You have a flawed sense of thinking that doesn't even constitute being called "thinking." By your logic, ANYONE can be a Bruce Lee with a little money and status, which is NOT true. Has Donald Trump changed an entire genre of thinking? Bruce Lee is more comparative to Bill Gates who came from desolate beginnings and formed an empire based on his innovative thinking.

By your logic, all of us who are passionate about what we do should be able to change the world's view about whatever it is we're passionate about. It's not that simple, I tell you...

[/B][/QUOTE]Lee wasn't the original thinker you think he was. Much of his material was derived from other sources. Lewis gives his opinion and also gives his reason for that opinion. Is he right? I don't know. [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh NO, well than tell me who is an original thinker? Did Joe Lewis come up with the idea of being formless and without style? NO... Perhaps Bruce Lee derived his theories based on what others have written, but he was definitely on to something. How else should someone develop theories? We're not aliens from another planet who have been secluded for years and then come up with someting totally original.

Tell me then, who came up with this original idea called JKD? Was it simply credited to Bruce Lee because he was a star? If so, why weren't everyone other Martial artist practicing formlessness? What are the premises for the statements you have made? Exactly... NONE.

[Thai Bri]

Actually plenty of people were practising formless fighting styles in the west. They just didn't have the aura of Eastern Martial Arts.

But, on the whole, Lee was, and still is, a massive force in martial Arts (for good and bad). Plenty of people who havent had a martial arts lesson in their lives will know who Bruce Lee was. Practically none of them will know Joe Lewis.

[jukado1]

Joe Lewis/Bruce Lee

not so great sage and followers: I first saw Bruce Lee at Ed Parkers international karate championships, in long beach ca. in the mid 60's, and like everyone else i was blown away by his demo. that was the first time i had seen the one inch punch, blindfold sparring, and one hand two finger pushups. so i'm a Bruce Lee fan. since that time i have worked with a few jkd people, including 2 of Bruce lee's direct students, including Joe Lewis. i have known Joe Lewis since 1968, and have never heard him say anything disrespectful about Bruce Lee, AND no i'm not deaf..., and yes Joe has been teaching, fighting, including Bruce Lee princaples for more then 30 years, right after Bruce's death every braindead jerk who had ever seen "enter the dragon: was teaching jkd and makeing a mockery of it. so Joe avoided the name jkd, but when Joe taught, the students were made aware of Bruce's contrabution to Joe's knowledge. among Bruce Lee's close friends were Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, and Ted Wong, and they all knew/liked/respected Bruce Lee. if Joe Lewis is such a scumbag, why do they associate with Joe? if Joe is as untalented in martial arts, why do they respect Joe?? I admit they don't have your knowledge, skill, or insight or i'm sure they would be here bashing Joe.
It's been fun trying to educate you, but since you have made up your minds and set them in stone i'm sorry your so bitter, but its your life, so live it the best you can. good luck and goodby.
train hard, train smart

[Lost Ronin]

Originally posted by Thai Bri
Can you edit that into paragraphs? That way someone may read it. No offence.

Sorry, typing fast, by the way are you related to Bri Thai or something?

[Lost Ronin]

I can't believe this crap!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by brokenelbow
[B] Many are passionate about their work, doesn't make them any better or any more correct than anyone else. If Bruce Lee wasn't a movie star he'd be some minor figure in martial arts history. Much of Lee's importance is a cultural icon, someone by whose celebrity was able to increase his awareness of martial arts.

Can someone please bring me somebody who knows what the hell he is talking about? What the hell is all this shit about Bruce Lee increasing his awareness of martial arts because of his celebrity status... The man practiced martial arts since he was thirteen years old! Bruce Lee ripped the martial arts world a new one and he wasn't even a movie star yet! Read some books and watch some documentaries Broken Elbow because those kinds of statements make you look like a dumbass.

[brokenelbow]

Has Donald Trump changed an entire genre of thinking? Bruce Lee is more comparative to Bill Gates who came from desolate beginnings and formed an empire based on his innovative thinking.

I like the Bill Gates analogy, since Gates has never been an inovator either. DOS, Windows, DDE, OLE, VB, .Net are all technologies and ideas either copied or bought by Microsoft. BTW Gates was a rich kid who attended, Harvard whose dad is a high powered lawyer. I can see why you're such a fanboy Great Sage.

Much of Lee's importance is a cultural icon, someone by whose celebrity was able to increase his awareness of martial arts.

I better not type after beer time. What I meant to type...
"Much of Lee's importance is as a cultural icon, someone whose celebrity was able to increase awareness of martial arts."

Lee had skills but not to the point where he was the ultimate martial artist. I think he was on the right path for him, but for all we know he also could have decided to drop the martial arts and become a dramatic actor, or open a chain of Bruce Lee McDojo's, or become a champion light weight boxer. We'll just never know.

So answer me Sage, who couldn't Lee beat?