double jut sao

[gungfuhero]

What do you do if someone's hands spring back up imediately after you do a double jut sao?

[sikal]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
What do you do if someone's hands spring back up imediately after you do a double jut sao?

It shouldn't matter. Your hands should still be over his hands after the jut sao. If you do a double jut sao into an uppercut or a rising punch, then his hands springing back up will just add momentum to your attack.

Mike

[gungfuhero]

Thanks a mil.

Rob

[BIG Sean Madigan]

Hi gungfuhero,

When you double jut, you must make sure that you do not do it in a passive way, i.e. without a hit.

If I am in the position to use a double jut sau, I will be hitting with a kick or a headbutt 'as' I am applying the double jut.

Sure, if you do NOT hit with the Jut sau, then the opponent may have a whole host of counters, however, if you apply the jut sau with a hit, then his/her counter must be that much more advanced, and complicated.

In your trapping progressions that you study, (if they are JKD) then you should not ever see "double jut sau" without an accompaning strike.

Try this, from high outside reference point:

Pak sau Da/Jao Sau, Double Jut Sau/Rear leg oblique kick, Headbutt, Lon sau Da.

Now THAT is a trapping progression that uses double Jut sau in the correct manner.

I hope this helps a bit,

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan, BIG JKD

https://www.bigjkd.com

[gungfuhero]

Some of the sets from the 1966 progression go directly to a gum sao da or ho bil gee to gumsao da after the double jut sao. I agree, using a headbutt or kick at the same time as the trap helps, but I'm trying to gain more insight in the other sets.

Good points though.

[Edited by gungfuhero on 11-12-2000 at 10:43 PM]

[shangchi]

What are some of the trapping progressions from 1966?

[gungfuhero]

They pretty much all start with a pak sao and involve reacting to different energies that an opponent might give you. The list starts of with pak sao da from different reference points and entries, then counters to the rear hand barrier, the lead hand barrier, etc. There is the wedge series, the high low high jao sao series, the half paksao series and so on. There are 38 sets and many sub variations. I think that it's one of the more prevalent among JKD instructors under Dan Inosanto.

[hekster]

You can also follow his arms up with your hands, pushing on the elbows. This should result in him rocking back, leaving him vulnerable to silat trips, double leg, etc.

[sikal]

Originally posted by hekster
You can also follow his arms up with your hands, pushing on the elbows. This should result in him rocking back, leaving him vulnerable to silat trips, double leg, etc.

LOL ... absolutely! Anytime I'm training in Jun Fan trapping, I invariably end up in Silat mode. For instance, on a Gom Sao (sp?), I often end up with my foot locked behind their foot ready for a Sapu Luar.

The double jutsao can also be done off to an angle to disrupt an opponent's balance and set him up for a Sapu Dalam (inside sweep).

Regards, Mike

[Chad W. Getz]

Without trying to sound like a 'clinching' freak(I've been posting about it alot recently), but the double jut, you can use his resisting energy to come back around and open him up from the inside with both hands. This should leave you here to throw in either pak sao also if wanted, but it does pave a road for clinching as well. If I'm understanding the terms used here correctly. If not, my bad.

Also can't you do a double jut with alot of energy to gain his resistance or do a double jut a little softer, to create just enough opening for the headbut like Sean was talking about. I will grab the hands loosely from outside to throw that headbut or groin kick in as well. I'm not too well versed in wing chun or jkd as far as the curriculum or ref points go.

[Harley]

yeah man, your on the right track as far as the 1966 progression goes.
Look at the previous traps in that progression and you will see the same structure in other traps.
the double jut sao is simply a double reference point. so all the 66 pro shows is some physical ideas of where to go next, big sean adds some that are also in the 66 pro. but if you look it will show you right there on the paper what to do when he raises up. one of the first posts says something that is the heart of the matter, your hands are above his...so just use his momentum to hit him. remember in absense of contact-go forward or upward as this case is.
harley

[Harley]

i think Sijo Lee threw alot of stuff out as he found he no longer needed it, but many of us poor slow mortals still get our strikes blocked, thus still need the ability to trap. as for the 66 progression, you can see in this series that he also had a lot of boxing mixed with the wing chun structure. i think that as he progressed himself he explored other areas and focused on those (meaning that's what he taught at the time, whatever he was working on) because he already had the trapping skills, so he just kinda moved on. just my opinion based on what i have seen.
harley

[sikal]

Originally posted by Harley
i think Sijo Lee threw alot of stuff out as he found he no longer needed it, but many of us poor slow mortals still get our strikes blocked, thus still need the ability to trap. as for the 66 progression, you can see in this series that he also had a lot of boxing mixed with the wing chun structure. i think that as he progressed himself he explored other areas and focused on those (meaning that's what he taught at the time, whatever he was working on) because he already had the trapping skills, so he just kinda moved on. just my opinion based on what i have seen.
harley

Absolutely, Harley! I think you've hit on something that a lot of people (in JKD and other arts) often overlook. They forget that in order for someone to have reached a level where they can seemingly ignore certain aspects, that person had to *work* past those. They had to train those so they understood them and could short-cut them.

I think now we're touching on a discussion I've been involved in elsewhere. That is that the phrase, "absorb what is useful, discard the rest" doesn't mean to completely throw things out. You find what doesn't work *for you at this moment* and you "discard" it from your primary toolbox ... but you put it on a shelf somewhere, not in the fireplace :-) When you teach it out, you should have that item available for your student ... he/she may be able to utilize it perfectly. *You* may be able to utilize that thing ten years from now :-)

I personally don't think that "discard the rest" means to throw something out. I think it means just to leave it in the garage, not put it in your emergency kit. It may be a completely valid training method ... or a completely valid application ... for your students. Or, what seems useless at 25 y.o. may make perfect sense at 35 ... or may be easier to do as your body "matures" :-)

One of the biggest problems I've seen is that people tend to look at something once and go, "I don't like that" or "I don't see any use for that" and never look at it again. From what I've heard about Bruce ... he never did this. He wouldn't "discard" anything until he had thoroughly studied it. He didn't make any snap judgements (though it may have seemed like he did initially :-) I've heard Guro Dan Inosanto talk about showing stickwork to Bruce. Bruce's initial response was along the lines of, "Hm." and he walked away. Guro Dan assumed Bruce wasn't impressed. A couple of weeks later, Bruce showed Dan some stickwork. Guro Dan said, "Where'd you learn that?" Bruce said, "I didn't 'learn' it ... this is just what I'd do with sticks." He had analyzed and experimented and found what worked for him ... and it was very similar to a system Guro Dan had been exposed to. Now, we have to remember, that Bruce was phenomonally gifted both physically and mentally when it came to martial arts. And, as I understand it, he was a madman for training. So, in that couple of weeks, he might have spent 50 or 100 hours working (in private) on the sticks. For most people, this wouldn't have been enough to really see anything ... but Bruce was gifted.

The point is, before "discarding" anything, Bruce analyzed it and just because he "discarded" something doesn't mean people shouldn't train it or that they should ignore it. "One man's garbage is another's treasure." :-)

Regards, Mike

[sikal]

Originally posted by ghoyd
That's not what I mean. I've heard many guys who trained with Bruce say he probably didn't need much more than the finger jab by the time he died.

I was told that he changed those progressions (ommitting some) because he no longer felt the same about them. Not because his skill level was beyond them.

I too feel that trapping from a wedge is dangerous,,,,just look at the hand positioning. It's a sneaky little attack, and if you can pull it off it, then I guess it is good for you, but a guy who is adept at trapping will capitalize on catching you in a wedge.



Been a good thread so far guys, let's keep it up.

What are your feelings about trapping from a wedge. Do you find it dangerous?


Gary

I like it as well as trapping from anywhere else ... but I always see the wedge as an eye jab. Also, as soon as the wedge makes contact, my other hand is moving to a better position (away from the immediate trap area).

All trapping can lead to getting trapped. Look at something like Pak Sao Da. When you fire the punch, you are vulnerable to a trap for a split moment. If your timing is off and/or your opponent is quick and skilled he can take advantage of it and trap you.

Regards, Mike

[sikal]

Originally posted by ghoyd
Hey Mike,

You have a point about all trapping can lead to getting trapped.

But,,,In my opinion you aren't in near as bad of position in pak da as you are in the wedge (still lots of options).

If I go to the wedge, I feel as if at that moment I have trapped myself. He merely has to pull my right hand down to have me in the "perfect trap".

Just my opinion ;-)

To clarify that we're defining a wedge the same way:
I do pak sao da and you parry my right punch with your left hand. My left hand shoots through the "V" formed at the outside of our wrists (my right, your left) with palm up (the wedge, right?). Then I can, for instance, do a pak sao with my right hand and roll my left into a backfist?

If we're on the same page as far as defining a wedge, then I would guess (and that's all it is since I've not seen/felt you do the wedge) that the problem you have is in your timing or in your depth of penetration with the wedge.

In the above description, I would be using the wedge to:
A) trap your left hand and free my right
B) jab you in the eye (hopefully)

The trap is there ... for a split second. If I do this with good timing and depth then you've got to be incredibly quick to pull my right hand down and catch the trap.

For me, I don't see this as being any more prone to a counter-trap than the pak sao da.

Of course, the standard caveat applies: mileage may vary. Everyone is built differently. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa :-) That's the great thing about the JKD mindset ... find your own path :-)

Regards, Mike