Are there any JKD guys

[lssanjose]

JKD like any art takes tons of practice, perseverance, patience, a willingness to be corrected. Anyone who tells you differently doesn't know their foot from their arse

[Domstarr]

Roz and Terry are both right. Paul Vunak got the contract with the Navy to train SEALS. When he was ready to leave, Frank Cucci who was a SEAL himself took over. I know this for a fact because I studied with Vunak and I skydive with SEALS who know Cucci.

Gee, Thai Bri, and Robert and Jules, why do you think Navy SEALS learned JKD instead of jiu jitsu or some other art? Hey, why don't we get me and some of my SEAL buddies together with you and some of your martial arts buddies and have a REAL fight and see what happens?
How about you guys who said that JKD guys don't enter tournaments because they would get their asses kicked? I guess they join the SEALS because they can use their "stuff" for real. It will kill any other art. "Ah, because it isn't just an art" Are you guys smart enough to figure that out?

[sercuerdas]

" any proficient jkd guy will take out a karate guy,a kung fu guy, a jujistu guy,a boxer etc."

thats a pretty big overstatement.

[lssanjose]

it is sercuerdas. . although in theory that could be the case, it all comes down to the moment conflict occuring. It's not so much who's fighting method is better but rather who beats who to the punch and who does that consistently and constantly. Not only that who has better recovery too.

[RobertG]

Ummmm Domstarr, SEALS do all sorts of things. Some SEALS do Sayoc Kali. Some SEALS do BJJ. I'm sure some SEALS even do Hapkido or Aikido or San Shou or Judo or go out and fight in armor with those Ren Faire dudes. Just because some SEALS train with Vunak doesn't mean all SEALS do JKD. And even if they did, they still probably cross-train since most JKD people do cross train in a lot of arts. Given that a SEAL is going to have a weapon at all times, and is not going to get into a striking match with anyone, it seems focusing on FMA is way more practical for them (especially blade work). But of couse SEALS use JKD--if JKD means using what is effective. I think what is effective for SEALS most of the time are guns, explosives, and being able to call in air strikes. I don't know about you Domstarr, but if I had the choice between going Rambo style and trying to take out a bunch of guys with my big ass blade or painting my laser at them to direct an F-14 to drop thousands of pounds of explosives on them, well I go with the F-14. That my friend is JKD--the most efficient way to destroy your opponent.

And don't be idiotic and asking me if I want to fight some SEALS. Me and what army? I like living, thank you very much. I'm not sure where in this thread I called out the SEALS, because I'm not prone to suicide. And I'm not quite sure why you feel you need to sell me on JKD since I study JKD. If I thought it was worthless I wouldn't waste my time. You are preaching to the converted. JKD RULES! Happy now?

[Domstarr]

Robert,

O.K. let's say we're on the same side here, that you are a JKD guy also. I'm with you. Let's not argue, but I seriously want to ask you why you, being a JKD guy put down Bruce Lee so bad in some of these threads? Try to explain it to me in a nice way and not be insulting and then I will treat you the same. O.K?
Basically, what you said about SEALS cross training, I agree, but in all actuality, JKD IS cross training. Do you agree? JKD is an ecclectic art, or philosophy, taking bits and pieces of other martial arts. Are we on the same page? I don't want to take the time to read back, but were you one of the guys saying how JKD guys would get killed in no holds barred fighting? Do you realize. like I and someone else also said, that most of those UFC and K-1 fighters are basically doing JKD?
I felt like I got mixed messages from you on how you felt about the subjects. Please elaborate.....NICELY.

Big Sean, read carefully. What the guys doing UFC and no holds barred fighting are doing IS JKD. If you don't understand what JKD really is, be man enough to ask someone to explain it to you before you make comments on things you obviously don't know about.

[brokenelbow]

LOL at Domstarr and Roz. You guys remind me of me about 4 years ago.

JKD is learning to fight from all 4 ranges. No other martial art teaches that. Lee and Inosanto developed it.

Coming up with labels is much different than originating something.

Paul Vunak got the contract with the Navy to train SEALS. When he was ready to leave, Frank Cucci who was a SEAL himself took over. I know this for a fact because I studied with Vunak and I skydive with SEALS who know Cucci.

I love it when guys think Vunak, Echanis, Peterson or whoever else developed h2h systems for or "trained" "the SEALS", Delta, or whoever else. I know a few people and any training they recieved from outside was short. Most that train in any arts do so on their own, some do traditional styles like various karate, kali/escrima and kung fu styles, others do more modern systems. From what I know most of the things they do comes from research and experience from within the various SO groups, not from some guy selling videos making a big deal about training some elite group.

But here's the main thing, even if someone did train every SEAL, Delta operator, Force Recon Marine, HRT and every spec ops guy that ever lived doesn't make you one, or means you'll fight like one and the same goes for the guy making the claims. Unless you do what they do, you won't be doing what they do.

BTW Guess what? Cucci is big time into BJJ and has even competed in it. I guess there goes his image.

[Domstarr]

Broken Elbow,

Here we go again with your uneducated answers.

1) No one said that Vunak trained ALL of the SEALS. Learn to read, not interpret it the way it suits you.

2) Paul Vunak also trains Brazilian jiu jitsu with the Gracies. That is what cross training is all about. What does that have to do with SEALS learnig JKD anyway?

3) Spend a little time doing research before you talk. Check out the letters from the Navy sent to Vunak. It's documented fact that he trained them for two years.

4) Other guys on this thread have already told you that. Don't put words in our mouths, read what was said , do a little research and learn instead of talking.

[terry]

Originally posted by Domstarr
Don't put words in our mouths, read what was said , do a little research and learn instead of talking.

Hmmm...This perception cuts both ways. I think the disagreement on this thread emanates from the spin you are putting on things, and frankly I don't want to be associated with it. It sounds too much like marketing spin, and I'd be concerned that people are gonna start to wonder what it is you are selling.

Let me un-spin this: Paul Vunak and Frank Cucci are both knowledgeable and respected teachers. BJJ, MT and JKD (among others) have been investigated by SEAL team members, and are worth investigating.

Terry

[jules]

JKD "means" the way of intercepting. That is not the only thing to the "art" or I should say "philosophy".

That's nice but that still doesn ot answer my question.

Listen and learn for a change instead of argueing.

If there was knowlage to be learnd i would learn it. Unfortunatelly all i see are grown men playing with words.

Read again what Doubleouch said. JKD is learning to fight from all 4 ranges. No other martial art teaches that. Lee and Inosanto developed it. (Don't start asking for written proof again.) It is learning bits and pieces of numerous martial arts and being able to use the one that is applicable at that particular moment in a fight.

and Combat Sambo and Krav Maga is different from JKD because???

Be like water, adapt to the situation you're in.

As i have asked before why aren't there any JKD guys "adopting" to K-1, UFC, KoTC, ect?

That is exactly what the K-1 and UFC fighters try to do. (Only if they want to win) Yes, JKD in a REAL street fight will break legs, take out eyes, use throat shots and groin shots, break elbows, etc which are not allowed in "no holds barred" fighting.

So does Combat Sambo and they still compete in MMA matches.

Any proficient JKD man will take out a karate guy, a kung fu guy, a jiu jitsu guy, a boxer, etc. because the JKD guy is not limiting himself to one way of fighting.

How about a Krav Maga guy? Combat Sombo guy?

Using no way as way. Open your mind and learn.

Learn what? How to avoid direct questions by beating around the bush?

Have you ever heard the expression, "It is better to remain quiet and let people wonder whether or not you're a fool, than to open your mouth and rmove all doubt."

I don't know about you but i have a brain and like any other person with a brain ; "It's true just because i say it, of course i won't provide any proof but you have to believe me!" is not good enough.

[sercuerdas]

jules,

krav maga is a basic self defense system. there striking is basically muay thai(done poorly imo), there grappling is very basic bjj, and there knife/stick stuff would get you killed. there counter gun work is probably the best there is. i'm not knocking the system, for it's purpose it is good, but any krav maga guy who fights mma is not a purely "krav maga guy". most krav people have backgrounds in other arts. oleg and bas both trained krav maga, but it would be misleading to call them krav maga guys when they won mma fights.
as far as combat sambo, i have no disagreement with you opinoin. it is a good art.

[Ryu (JKD?)]

Originally posted by terry


Hmmm...This perception cuts both ways. I think the disagreement on this thread emanates from the spin you are putting on things, and frankly I don't want to be associated with it. It sounds too much like marketing spin, and I'd be concerned that people are gonna start to wonder what it is you are selling.

Let me un-spin this: Paul Vunak and Frank Cucci are both knowledgeable and respected teachers. BJJ, MT and JKD (among others) have been investigated by SEAL team members, and are worth investigating.

Terry

Terry, stop making sense! What are you trying to do here??


Ryu

[brokenelbow]

It will kill any other art. "Ah, because it isn't just an art"

Any proficient JKD man will take out a karate guy, a kung fu guy, a jiu jitsu guy, a boxer, etc. because the JKD guy is not limiting himself to one way of fighting. Using no way as way.

Domstarr, now I'm LMAO. Now you're limiting your thinking to beleiving that a karate guy, a kung fu guy, a jiu jitsu guy, a boxer, etc. will fight a certain way. You're applying a template to all fighters based on your assumptions and experience. In other words you're thinking inside the box. Dirty effective fighting is not dictacted by style. Also considering that the RAT system is so simple and follows a formula that it's no longer meeting your JKD criterea of way as no way and is predictable.

1) No one said that Vunak trained ALL of the SEALS. Learn to read, not interpret it the way it suits you.

You wrote, Gee, Thai Bri, and Robert and Jules, why do you think Navy SEALS learned JKD instead of jiu jitsu or some other art?
So you're implying that SEALs only learned JKD and SEALS don't learn any other arts? Oddly enough my experience says otherwise. Many people contract with the SEALs, and other groups.

2) Paul Vunak also trains Brazilian jiu jitsu with the Gracies. That is what cross training is all about. What does that have to do with SEALS learnig JKD anyway?
See above.

3) Spend a little time doing research before you talk. Check out the letters from the Navy sent to Vunak. It's documented fact that he trained them for two years.
Great, two years back when? Does he still have a contract? Also what does that have to do with your training?

Hey, why don't we get me and some of my SEAL buddies together with you and some of your martial arts buddies and have a REAL fight and see what happens?
Hey, why not get some of your SEAL buddies to give you some training and tell us what they teach you. And how close are you to these SEAL buddies of yours that your offering them up to fight someone? You best man at any of their weddings, godfather of any of their kids? You're the one wrapping yourself, JKD and Vunak in the SEAL blanket. Are you a SEAL or training to become a SEAL? If not, why not?

So how come Cucci a JKD a former Navy SEAL trained by Vunak himself and his replacement, can train and compete in MMA and BJJ events? Does that mean he's given up his street effectiveness to be a fighter, or does it mean you're assuming things that fly in the face of reality?

[terry]

Re: It will kill any other art. "Ah, because it isn't just an art"

Originally posted by brokenelbow
Does that mean he's given up his street effectiveness to be a fighter, or does it mean you're assuming things that fly in the face of reality?

"Um, I'll go for, 'You're assuming things that fly in the face of reality,' for 200, Bob."

Ding, ding, ding...

"The answer is correct. Circle gets the square."

[Applause from the audience...]

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Domstarr
JKD is learning to fight from all 4 ranges. No other martial art teaches that. Lee and Inosanto developed it.

Well it seems to me that a lot of arts cover all 4 ranges--and even weapon ranges. Silat and FMA immediately come to mind. Now Inosanto certainly incorporated those into JKD, but they were quite sufficient, complete arts on their own. Until relatively recently these arts were being used in real life and death confrontations. JKD has not actually been tested in the same manner. I can think of many, many arts that cover multiple ranges; for instance, and one many people never think of, Savate originally included weapons, grappling, and clinch type work. I'm pretty certain Muay Thai had grappling and weapons components. Jujitsu used to contain lots of striking. Many kung fu styles include grappling components, as well weapons. Nearly every art that was functional contains all the ranges because you needed to have those in your arsenal.

Now when Bruce comes on the scene in America you've got a lot of derived arts that have lost their roots. Karate, after having evolved in Okinawa, and then Japan, had lost nearly everything outside of strikes and kicks (not entirely true for the Okinawan varieties of course...). TKD had been streamlined to almost all kicks. Judo, while great for the range its intended, obviously had been stripped of many of the original jujitsu components. And Bruce studied a form of kung fu that was highly derived. Wing Chun, again, like judo, while effective in its range, lacks a lot outside of that range. So here's Bruce with a limited background in Wing Chun (my understanding is that he did not ever learn the entire art) arriving in America amongst a bunch of other people practicing partial martial arts. So, sure, it seemed like a revolution when he suggested that maybe we ought to reincorporate all the ranges back into martial arts. But in reality its nothing new.

Perhaps the real innovation of JKD is stripping traditional arts of a lot of "fluff" and focusing on the functional. And perhaps practicing katas for hours on end constitutes fluff, and JKD has freed many people from that to focus on sparring and conditioning. Not that sparring and conditioning are anything new either. Bruce simply appropriated a lot from fighting sports like boxing. These people had already discovered this stuff. Bruce just help open the minds of the average karate/tkd practicing person to modern training methods.

Now Domstarr as far as how I can practice JKD and yet "put down" Bruce...first off, I never really put down Bruce. I said I was skeptical he ever fought anyone after the age of 18 besides Wong Jack Man. I pointed out that the only two witnesses besides Bruce and Linda who were ever interviewed had a very different opinion of the fight (of course, Wong Man was one of those interviewed). When people wanted to continue claiming Bruce's supernatural powers, yes, I did provide a link that dispelled his phyiscal abilities. Pardon me if I'm skeptical that a guy who only squated 90 lbs. could cause a 300 lb. heavy bag to explode with a kick. The musclulature simply wasn't there. Hell the even Sapp doesn't have the mass to blow up heavy bags, so that's hardly putting down Bruce. I have several times acknowledge Bruce's contribution to the martial arts. That he was an innovator (although my analysis above calls that into some question) has nothing to do with whether or not he actually fought anyone. You can be a perfectly capable fighter and martial arts instructor without ever having been in a street fight (though you might not be a great street fighter).

As far as mixed martial artists essentially doing JKD...well, yes and no. Most MMA people don't come from JKD schools--that is, they don't really have any lineal descent from Inosanto. They study mulitple arts, but "JKD", as in the formal curriculum taught at JKD schools, is not something most MMA guys do. Whether a JKD guy would win or not depends entirely on the JKD guy. Is he a good striker? Is he a good grappler? Does he have good knees in the clinch? These attributes aren't unique to JKD. Then we have the question of what exactly JKD is these days. Most JKD types cross train in FMA, Silat, Muay Thai, and some form of grappling (usually BJJ). They may have a JKD core consisting of essentially boxing/wing chun, but they're going to have a lot of other tools at their disposal. In this sense MMA and JKD are similar, but their origins are not the same. Likewise, you can't say MMA and San Shou are the same, nor San Shou and JKD (though San Shou essentially evolved via a similar process as JKD, e.g. a distilling of the Chinese arts for ring combat). This is convergent evolution, not evolution from a common ancestor. Again, a JKD will do well in the ring so long as he trains for the ring environment. In that sense, his training and skill set (in the ring) will come to resemble a mixed martial artists. Insofar as training for other eventualities, e.g. real combat, a JKD person will be a good as his training reflects that combat environment. To say that JKD are, by definition, so lethal they'll kick the crap out of any other art is a little over the top, don't you think?