Are there any JKD guys

[Nutz]

Originally posted by brokenelbow
Why you don't see JKD people in K-1 is that they are not good at K-1 and would have their asses handed to them even with their illegal strikes. The training for competitive kickboxing is more intense, requires more dedication and more heart than what the vast majority of JKD guys are willing to put in.

What's your point? The same can be said for 99% of practicioners of any sport or fighting art. You need to realize that not everyone trains to be a pro. Some do it for excersice, others may do it for fun, for others it may to simply be able to handle themselves in a street altercation.

If a JKD fighter really wants to compete in kickboxing, point fighting, Olympic TKD, MMA or any other ring sport he will not use the "deadly techniques" excuse but train to fight by the same rules as everybody else, put his time in and get into the ring.

I agree 100% with what you're trying to say, but your argument is comparing apples to oranges here. You need to realize that many martial arts have to omit techniques that may be critical to the function of the system or style. That's a defining differnce between NHB events and a real (street)fight. For example, it wouldn't make any sense if a Jujitsu practicioner wanted to be a pro wrester if the events counted any time on your back against you (such as collegiate wrestling). The second you start adapting a way of fighting to fit within the confines of a sporting event, you can loose some of what makes a given art so effective. Its similar to how Judo evolved from JuJitsu. You see where some of the techniques come from, but its not the same thing. I'm not comparing the effectiveness of one vs the other, but the point of adoptation for sport purposes. Another example is why you don't see ex-SF types in the ring. Their effectiveness is legendary on the street and in real world application, but they can't just go around snapping necks or busting folks up in the ring like what their training was designed around.

Don't insult sport fighters by even suggesting that you are at their level in their sport and the only thing keeping you out are eye jabs and kicks to the knee.
BTW, that goes for just about any other martial art or system so replace JKD with karate, Wing Chun, TKD, kali, etc.

Again, I agree 100%. There have been countless arguments attributed to this sort of thinking. Its more associated with the armchair martial artist than anything else, so its discussion is moot in my eyes. Anywho, I think Domstarr got it right with the expression "Those who can, do it, those who cannot, talk about it."

[sercuerdas]

yes, but we all keep talking.

[brokenelbow]

Nut

Its similar to how Judo evolved from JuJitsu. You see where some of the techniques come from, but its not the same thing. I'm not comparing the effectiveness of one vs the other, but the point of adoptation for sport purposes.

People used to die during Judo matches, mostly deadly jujitsu guys.

Another example is why you don't see ex-SF types in the ring.

Frank Cucci and some others may differ with you on that.

Domstarr

I tell someone that I have a bunch of SEAL friends and they don't believe me. They ask if I've been the best man at their wedding because everyone on this site seems like they are trained to dis-believe everything that anyone else says.

On the internet, damn right I'm not going to buy into what anybody claims or says. The reason I was asking for how personal a relationship it was is that you were putting them out there to fight. In regards to Vunak I don't think he's a liar, I think he's very talented but some times he's wrong. So forgive me if I don't take every word of Saint Paul as gospel.

[Nutz]

Originally posted by brokenelbow
Nut
People used to die during Judo matches, mostly deadly jujitsu guys.

And people still die in "deadly" boxing matches. What's your point?

Frank Cucci and some others may differ with you on that.

Yup. There is always an exceptoin for the rule. My point follows yours in that you don't see them using their full repotior of what they know. His training from the military seems to bear lightly on his sport fighting as his "style" looks as though he's embraced a BJJ/MMA attitude towards the sport aspects of the fight game. I think his street style would be just a bit different. If you know him then ask him what he'd do differently between a life & death situation and a match in the ring. Any martial artist worth his weight in salt should see the distinction between the two environments. My point: what works on the street is going to be different than what works in the ring, regardless of its shape. Now that's not to say what works in the ring won't be useful in the street environment. Saying someone who trains for one environment is better than someone who trains in the other is comparing apples to oranges. But I will acknowledge the skill level of pro fighters in that they are usually more trained as a fighter in general and are often orders of magnitude more adept to handling themselves in real situations (typically due to highly developed attributes). Nuff said.

[RobertG]

Originally posted by Nutz


The second you start adapting a way of fighting to fit within the confines of a sporting event, you can loose some of what makes a given art so effective. Its similar to how Judo evolved from JuJitsu. You see where some of the techniques come from, but its not the same thing. I'm not comparing the effectiveness of one vs the other, but the point of adoptation for sport purposes. Another example is why you don't see ex-SF types in the ring. Their effectiveness is legendary on the street and in real world application, but they can't just go around snapping necks or busting folks up in the ring like what their training was designed around.

First off lots of ex-street fighters wind up in the ring. How about Quinton Jackson? Mike Tyson? A lot of guys who wind up being professional fighters were street fighters earlier in their lives. Its the sport that got them off the street. No one really goes around snapping necks anyway, even street fighters. I think the incidents of neck breaking in street fights is probably very low.

Also, you're argument regard Judo and Jujitsu is flawed. Kano had taken arts that were essentially degenerate and dead and revived them. The classical jujitsu ryu that Kano learned were hundreds of years removed from the battlefield. They were refined by guys that never saw battle. And professional sport wrestling in Japan was the turf of sumotori, not jujitsu guys. Many of the schools were very small and with very few practioners. Nevermind that Jujitsu was never really refined until the Tokugawa era and after warfare was largely gone in Japan. A lot of the techniques in the original jujitsu were designed for dealing with armed and armored samurai (and probably assumed the guy using the techniques was also armored and probably with a blade handy). So when Kano actually tried these techniques in live unarmed combat, at great number of them simply didn't work. Since Judo rapidly grew in popularity, the sample size was adequate to test effective technique. That is if a million people are trying the same techniques, the ones that work best, on average, become apparent rapidly. BJJ, with its roots in Judo, went through the same process of rediscovery. Arts that are removed from real life combat loose effectiveness. Bringing them into the real of contact sport brings some degree of that effectiveness back.

And really, how hard is it for guys in the ring to go lethal if they want? So lets take the gloves off Wanderlei Silva. Tell him he can throw elbows. Tell him he can rip the guys eyes out. Tell him he can head butt, bite, fishook, scratch, kick the nuts. Now Silva goes from being a scary ass mofo to a downright lethal mofo. He would kill someone really easily. This goes with any number of MMA fighters. Take Mirko in his last fight. He knocked the guy out. All it takes to go from "ring" to "lethal" is the following. Mirko knocks the guy out with the kick, runs over, takes side control and bites in the carotid artery and he bleeds out to death. Or any fight ended by a choke submission. Well if a guy can get a choke to submission he can get a choke until death. Armbars can very easily turn into broken arms, leg locks into broken knees. These guys can pull it off. They are not far removed from being killers. Its not like, oh, if you take away the rules they're out of their element. No, its you have a badass who fights within the rules, and you take away the rules and now he can go do really nasty shit to you. And that is all the so called "lethal" techniques of the traditional arts consist of--doing nasty shit like biting, gouging, scratching, stomping guys on the ground.

[Domstarr]

Jules,

You forgot my two most important quotes....

1)....those who can, do it and those who can't, talk about it.

2)....I've told some of my SEAL buddies about the conversations I've gotten into ont his web-site and they laugh and tell me not to waste my time. I spoke to my friend Stephen Quadros, who was a contributing editor of Black Belt magazine, co-author of Bas Rutten's book, was also play by play commentator for the "Pride fighting Championships" and he said the same thing. "You know what you know, why try to convince those guys who just want someone to argue with?" Get off the web-site and do what you do best, train yourself and train your students.

You're not going to learn martial arts on the internet. Shut up and train.

I'll let nutz take over. He's doing a good job trying to explain it to you, but he'll get frustrated too after awhile. Good luck nutz.

[Thai Bri]

You seem lacking in the maturity and self control departments. This is only an internet forum. If you don't like it, you don't have to partake. You shouldn't need to ask one of the mods to keep you off. You should be able to keep yourself off.

And, if you take this seriously, you need psychiatric help.

I'm sure you're a good guy. But keep things in perspective!

[Nutz]

Originally posted by RobertG
....These guys can pull it off. They are not far removed from being killers. Its not like, oh, if you take away the rules they're out of their element. No, its you have a badass who fights within the rules, and you take away the rules and now he can go do really nasty shit to you. And that is all the so called "lethal" techniques of the traditional arts consist of--doing nasty shit like biting, gouging, scratching, stomping guys on the ground.

And as I said earlier,

But I will acknowledge the skill level of pro fighters in that they are usually more trained as a fighter in general and are often orders of magnitude more adept to handling themselves in real situations (typically due to highly developed attributes).

Great job! You just made me quote myself

[Jeet_Tek]

JKD is a philosophy of getting the job done. If it works you use it, if it doesn't work you get rid of it. JKD fits into just about anything. It's not just the "stop fist" style.

I know this is from the 2nd page of the thread, but I just wanted to thank Ryu for putting that. It's kinda answered something that I was thinking about a while ago.

[Kali]

Thats not true

JKD teaches us to use what’s appropriate to the situation at hand, for example a jumping spinning back kick is not a suitable technique to use if you are being attacked in a phone box, but to trap your opponent so u can attack and escape safely would be. Every technique has its uses given the correct situation. If a technique is not working for you, don't just discard it find out why it doesn't work, in most cases its due to a lack of technical know how.

[jules]

1)....those who can, do it and those who can't, talk about it.

many people who could "do it" , "talked about it" even bruce lee talked about differnet ways and methods.

2)....I've told some of my SEAL buddies about the conversations I've gotten into ont his web-site and they laugh and tell me not to waste my time.

What do you tell them? "I say things without providing/quoting any books, interviews, or urls and they won't take my word for it".

I spoke to my friend Stephen Quadros,

Good for you.... WTF

who was a contributing editor of Black Belt magazine, co-author of Bas Rutten's book, was also play by play commentator for the "Pride fighting Championships" and he said the same thing. "You know what you know, why try to convince those guys who just want someone to argue with?"

Assuming that you are telling the truth. Did you mention to him that you have not provided any sources? If he is a respectable journalist as you say he is then he would have told you to actually back up your statments. If you have told him the fact that you want people to blindly take your word.

I'll let nutz take over. He's doing a good job trying to explain it to you, but he'll get frustrated too after awhile. Good luck nutz.

Let's hope nutz actually provides information in the form of urls, books, or interviews. Unlike you that is.

[jules]

I agree 100% with what you're trying to say, but your argument is comparing apples to oranges here.

I Disagree, it's not about apples and oranges. If anything it's about milk and skim milk. Other styles have adopted to compete in MMA. Styles that are used in some of the most dangerous armed forces in the world. So why can't JKD? Or does JKD consist of biting, eye gouging, and nut kicking only?

You need to realize that many martial arts have to omit techniques that may be critical to the function of the system or style.

So every style gives a little.

That's a defining differnce between NHB events and a real (street)fight.

Everyone knows that MMA is competition, but everyone also knows that MMA is the closest thing out there to a real fight. People know that styles that were designed to kill or maim people such as Combat Sambo and Krav Maga have been watered down to be able to compete in MMA. So my question stands. Why can't JKD do the same thing that other styles can?

[sercuerdas]

as i've said before no pure krav maga guy fights in mma events with any success.

[shasan]

Originally posted by jules


...Or does JKD consist of biting, eye gouging, and nut kicking only?

tsk tsk... tone down the rhetoric.

JKD is not a style. I know people will argue/flame this, but I don't think it 'consists' of anything...

The version of JKD that some schools teach resembles Vale Tudo quite a bit, plus all the biting, gouging and nut kicking as you put it.

I think the functional basis of JKD as I understand it, is the concept of ranges and flowing from one to another.

Having said that, I don't see why a JKD practitioner would not be able to compete in MMA.. in fact I've seen some guys who have 'JKD' as their 'style' compete in MMA... I believe in UFC and in King of the Cage...

fYI, these guys look like they're MMA but they pretty JKD (if you insist on labels) http://www.straightblastgym.com/

[swagman]

Tao

of JKD
means exactly that the Tao, or the way, its not a style its a thought process, which asks you to open your mind, absorb all that suits YOU! and works for you and your body style and to then train as hard as you can.

One thing I know and observe daily is that debate is beneficial, however petty bickering does not further our art (whichever it is)

The art that is the best is the one that works for you

Go in peace and prosper