Wong Jak Man kicked Brue's ass.

[NickL]

Fenwick, Glover wasn't "there", it was James Lee who was "there". Unless you're talking about the fight with the karate blackbelt that occurred a few years previously to the WJM fight. What are we talking about again?

[SimonM]

Problem: Guerillas in South America Kidnapping innocent people.
Cause: American Ego.

Actually not far off the mark.

You see there was this thing that the Americans invented in the nineteenth century called "manifest destiny", basically they felt it was their inevitable destiny to dominate the entirity of the americas. They filled Cuba up with mobsters and put pisspot dictators all over Latin America.

When Che tried to initiate a revolution in Bolivia it was the CIA who murdered him.

The USA actually SPONSORED the coup where the democratically elected Aillende was murdered and supplanted by Augusto Pinochet, one of the worst and most brutal dictators of the 20th century.

Manifest destiny has been in decline in Latin America for a while now. The signs are telling: Cuba has named Costa Rica as a sister state. Argentina has been making friends with China and socialist governments have been DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED in several latin american countries. But they would probably have been at this point in the seventies if not for American interference.

So yes, American arrogance is to blame for many of the problems in Latin America.

[GonzoStyles]

wow from a mythical martial arts encounter to manifest destiny?

Wong Jak Man versus Bruce Lee

is it really that relevant? between this and the umpteenth pages long thread about two guys rolling around on the floor who were supposed to be Wing
chun masters I mean come on guys cant we discuss something a little more stimulating besides fighting over which fish tale to believe?

lets talk about real contributions to the martial arts

Bruce Lee- JKD a self defense Philosophy that allows practitions to study fundamentals of any style and adapt useful techniques to use.

Wong Jak Man- unless anyone can find out otherwise I belive that a he was mired in traditional nonsense, and this perpetuates the myth some martial arts are some how sacred and above anything else, and somewhere in the art is a "secret" technique(s) which will defeat anyone (Ie the "final" wing chun stuff Yip Man never showed to Bruce)

so in contributions to martial arts/science Bruce wins Hands down

[Tom Yum]

Actually not far off the mark.

You see there was this thing that the Americans invented in the nineteenth century called "manifest destiny", basically they felt it was their inevitable destiny to dominate the entirity of the americas. They filled Cuba up with mobsters and put pisspot dictators all over Latin America.

So yes, American arrogance is to blame for many of the problems in Latin America.

We are taught that Manifest Destiny was the driving motivation for spreading America's territory from the 13 orginal colonies, the Louisiana purchase and the additional accquisitions of land westward to the Pacific coast.

But South America...

[MatthewAlphonso]

...lets talk about real contributions to the martial arts

Bruce Lee- JKD a self defense Philosophy that allows practitions to study fundamentals of any style and adapt useful techniques to use...

Umm, people have been doing that for hundreds of years, nothing ever stopped them. It's just that Bruce was a master at marketing it.

[SimonM]

But South America...

Yes, South America.

Just think about the number of latin-american countries that the USA has messed with and tried to control at various times. This is not an all-inclusive example:

Cuba
Panama
Nicaragua
Mexico
Chile
Bolivia
Colombia

These seven have probably been hit the worse but they are not alone. Most have either been invaded by the USA, have had dictators sponsored and supported by the USA or have been used as a dumping ground for mobsters who were too influential to be put in jail. And that isn't even addressing more insidious forms of US control like NAFTA.

Oh and if Bruce Lee hadn't chickened out of the rematch I would have put money on Wong Jack Man to win.

[GonzoStyles]

he marketed it?

I guess thats why he dissolved his schools?

I was speaking about the marked contrast between Bruce and Wong
in their approach and contributions.

I think you misunderstood my intent.

[fenwick99]

an idea

Ok, so maybe WJM did beat BL. Now, let's see Wong beat Randy Couture or Chuck Liddell......(so Linda was lying all these years?)
You know, I guess many of us on this forum, and I speak only for me, both admire BL (and have trained in wc and junfan!!!!)and also happen to believe that JKD and Jun Fan have been superceded by BJJ, MMA, chute boxe, lutelivre, and shooto. I think this whole rash all over the internet about WJM is really about traditionalists who want to "prove" to themselves that JKD sucks and BL is a joke, so therefore the traditional styles must be the best. But the traditionalists do not have to argue about
"Jeet Kune Bruce" and condescend to a man who has been dead for 33 years; all they need do is use their Shaolin Dragon or Pu Pu Pai or Goju 29 or whatever to win the UFC. What better way is there to prove the effectiveness of one's style than to beat Randy Couture?
Personally, if you wnat real combat, FMA is the way to go. Multiples and weapons are the main concern-- a fair fight vs. a single/unarmed man is like kissing your sister in this day and age.

[bustr]

Wong Jack Man

edited for...

[NickL]

In correspondance letters to friends like James Lee(who witnessed the fight), Bruce Lee always fondly refers to Wong as "the runner".

[fenwick99]

re

If the mythology of the teaching gwilos issue is untrue, there is still no reason to believe that Bruce did not beat Wong. Several of BL's original students made inquires into the original 1980 OFFICAL KARATE article, and
came to the conclusion that Linda's version of events is accurate.
Of course, that does not prevent the pro- Wong version from being trumpted all over the web.
Q- if Bruce never learned Biugee from Yip, why would one believe that
Bruce was trying to use the techniques of Biugee in the Wong fight?
Q- if a young, skinny Bruce sould handle guys like Demile and Glover in Seattle, why would anyone assume that a traditional NS 24 y/o sifu could beat him? Unless, may be ur anti jkd and anti-wing-chun to begin with?

[SimonM]

Q- if Bruce never learned Biugee from Yip, why would one believe that
Bruce was trying to use the techniques of Biugee in the Wong fight?

Yip Man was well known for saying that there were no secret techniques. That is a good reason to assume that BL did learn Biugee from him. This would support WJM's assertation that BL used Biu Gee techniques on him.

Q- if a young, skinny Bruce sould handle guys like Demile and Glover in Seattle, why would anyone assume that a traditional NS 24 y/o sifu could beat him? Unless, may be ur anti jkd and anti-wing-chun to begin with?

Nobody's saying that Bruce was no good (at least I'm not) just that he wasn't the best. Wong Jack Man simply may have been a better fighter. And I am not Anti-Wing Chun; I am quite fond of the style.

[MatthewAlphonso]

If the mythology of the teaching gwilos issue is untrue, there is still no reason to believe that Bruce did not beat Wong. Several of BL's original students made inquires into the original 1980 OFFICAL KARATE article, andcame to the conclusion that Linda's version of events is accurate.
Of course, that does not prevent the pro- Wong version from being trumpted all over the web.

There's also no reason to say that Wong did not beat, or tie, with Bruce.

Q- if Bruce never learned Biugee from Yip, why would one believe that Bruce was trying to use the techniques of Biugee in the Wong fight?

mebbe he learned it mebbe he didn't. Mebbe he didn't learn it form Yip but learned it from someone else. We don't know. we probably never will.

Q- if a young, skinny Bruce sould handle guys like Demile and Glover in Seattle, why would anyone assume that a traditional NS 24 y/o sifu could beat him? Unless, may be ur anti jkd and anti-wing-chun to begin with?

First of all, saying that Bruce could handle other people has no bearing on the match at hand.

Second, stating that the man may have lost a match does not make a person anti-anything. That's like saying if someone disagrees with Bush on something it automatically makes him Un-American.

[fenwick99]

george bush beat bruce lee

First of all, bruce did not learn Biugee from Yip. True, he may have picked it up from Old Red Junk, but he usually used the wc chain punching in a real fight.
Second, I have had either personal communcations or email contacts with original BL students, and no one actually believes the conspiracy theory about the Wong Jak Man fight. NO ONE, except anti-jkd webbers and students of Wong!
Third, Leo Fong relates a story about Jimmy Woo being afraid to fight Bruce. Now to me, Jimmy Woo was forty miles of bad road, and in his prime I wouldn't have fought that man with a gun! If Jimmy Woo was essentially "chicken" to draw hands with Bruce for real, I can hardly believe that some 24-year-old from China could have bested or even survived Bruce's attack. Of ocurse, this is all indirect evidence, but since there is no video of the fight, we can only reconstruct the event from views of conflicting eyewitnesses. Now, do I worship Lee? No- any number of men could have beaten Bruce: from Ruas to Hackney to Royce to either Shamrock
to Liddell to Mo Smith to Stan Longinidis to Dennis Alexio.
Did Bruce beat Mr. Super-chi? think so.

[Gambit]

Who beat who, why he changed what is not important. Let it go! Spend some time training instead! Jesus Christ.