Wong Jak Man kicked Brue's ass.

[medic06]

I have videos of Insonato. But I have just seen better.

I'm not disputing that Insonato isn't a good martial artist. I am just saying that he isn't that influential, compared to the many more influences that have come from America. Maybe from a JKD perspective he has given you guys a lot - although considering the title of this post I wouldn't hold out hope that many JKD guys respect him, especially if JKD guys are slating its own founder!!!

Why am I backpeddling? So far no-one has really given me any reason to doubt my statements. I have done 20 years of martial arts without having much to do with Insonato. He has not influenced me or any of my students.

I wasn't sayimng that Insonato was rubbish

That sound familiar?

[Garland]

I have videos of Insonato. But I have just seen better.

Who, pray tell, mr. badass wing chun god.

[wsdddoa012]

reponse

Well I know for me anyways Dan Insanto hasnt influenced my martial arts or my training methods. Really I haven't heard of Dan giving an influence other then keeping JKD alive. Bruce Lee has had more of an influence then Dan in my martial arts.

I practiced TKD for 12 years. 17 years total of practicing, teaching and living the martial arts. I can honestly say that Dan Insanto really hasnt had much of an influence in the TKD industry as much as lets say JKD, FMA, or Kenpo Karate which I've heard he was an advance practitioner.

I'm not saying Dan Insanto hasnt done good things for the Martial Arts but I haven't heard of him making any big changes or revolutionizing the Martial Arts Industry, especially when it comes to various styles, all I've really ever heard is "Bruce Lee" "Bruce Lee" "Mr. Miyagi".. lol

[Garland]

I'm not saying Dan Insanto hasnt done good things for the Martial Arts but I haven't heard of him making any big changes or revolutionizing the Martial Arts Industry, especially when it comes to various styles, all I've really ever heard is "Bruce Lee" "Bruce Lee" "Mr. Miyagi".. lol

Do the world a favor and swallow a bullet.

[Red Rum]

Hahaha this is absolute nonsense. A guy gave an honest answer (that he hadn't heard of Inosanto) and you shot him down.

'LOL...well, I could just as easily ask if anyone knows Gustav Holst, Wynton Marsalis and Britney Spears. Chances are they only recognize Spears as a musician - despite the fact that the previous two names are very, very highly revered in classical and jazz, respectively.'

Yeah and I have never heard of them. The argument was about who they have inspired. Despite Britney having a limited amount of talent, she is an inspiration to millions of young people. I quite enjoy her songs to be honest and I am sure many guys on here have tapped their foot to a few of her songs. As for the jazz and classical guy - most have never heard of them, hence they cannot be the most influential people in America etc.

The statement we are pulling apart is that Inosanto is 'the most influential/best martial artist in the USA'

I am well aware that Master Kevin Chan is not known by many and that was my point - that he came higher in a martial arts poll than Insonato

My lineage is nothing to do with Insonato - it came pretty much direct through Ip Chun/Yip Man

The world works that everybody is influenced by soemthing else. As I am posting you guys right now, I am influencing your thoughts in a good/bad way. So in some ways you are correct that he may have influenced people without them realising, but so have I probably.

Mike, I hope you are joking about Inosanto starting up MMA, open karate tournaments, etc. My old karate instructor was involved in open karate tournaments before Inosanto was even born.

And I freely admit that my contribution to the martial arts is limited. Hey I'm not too bothered by that. I prefer to see the effects in person (seeing a student become very good) rather than influence the world in a watered down way

[Red Rum]

Please show me where I said he started these things. .

Dan was instrumental in not only helping to start the open karate tournaments that bloomed into the full contact scene, he also virtually created the seminar market that so many genuinely world-class experts accessible to the small town instructors around the world. .

Your words not mine

Red Rum, the point of contention in this topic is not who has or has not heard of Dan Inosanto. That's a ridiculous argument to begin with. The point is that you imply that his influence is minimal. .

Never said that. I was saying that he was not the most influential martial artist in the US.

Out of curiosity, how many students does your instructor work with in a given year?.

Wrong question to ask my friend... Kevin Chan has links everywhere. In BJJ at (top class level), his own federation which has thousands of members, in UFC (which he has judged previously) and everytime I go round his house I see a new face doing private lessons with him

But my argument was not about how good my instructor is - I would train with him rather than Inosanto anyday, and that is my choice. The argument came down to a stupid comment saying that Inosanto was the most influential

And yes I understand the difference between inspirational and influential thankyou.

[Tim McFatridge]

Why is there always shooting down Bruce and Dan... I posted this in another thread in answer to RedRum and wanted to post it in here now that I have read the many post on this ridiculous topic.

I can tell you that the reason so many people believe that Guro Dan is the most influential person in the martial arts is because of what all he has done. He has done more than any other single martial artist out there to bring in other systems from outside the USA.

In the 1970's when he and Richard Bustillo were running the Kali Academy in Torrence, Ca. they would always bring in different Kali men to teach at the acadmey. They would bring in Floro Villabrille and Ben Largusa to teach Villabrille Kali. They would bring in Ted Lucaylucay Sr. who would teach everyone boxing and related everything to the blade. This was later called Panantukan. They would bring in Angel Cabables who would teach them his system of Serrada Escrima. Guro Dan also worked with Sifu Frances Fong in Wing Chun and helped spread the word about Wing Chun to those interested in WC. Later on Guro Dan brought in a Savate guy and had him start teaching at the Inosanto Academy and helped promote Savate to the rest of the country. He also brought in Master Chai and had him start teaching his Muay Thai at the Academy and then started promoting Muay Thai to the rest of the country. He had Edgar Sulite teach him LAMECO Eskrima then started promoting LAMECO Eskrima to the country and helped Edgar get his seminars going. In 1994 a gentleman by the name of Yori Nakamura came to the US for one reason... to learn JKD from Guro Dan. When he arrived Guro Dan asked Yori to show him what he had trained in Japan. Yori then showed Shootwresling as he had been taught by the founder Satoro Sayama. Guro Dan quikly called up Larry Hartsell to come down and see this style of fighting. Larry and Dan became students of Shootwrestling at that moment. A short time later Erik Paulson was introduced to it. Guro Dan had Yori start teaching Shoot at his school and began spreading the word on Shootwrestling at all his seminars.

When people say that he is the most influential person in the martial arts it is not any disrespect to any one else out there. It is just that Guro Dan has brought in people from arts other than what he was teaching or training at the time in order to introduce the rest of the country to what he saw as valuable. You can contact the Muay Thia Association of the USA and ask Master Chai what he thinks about Guro Dan. Or you can contact Erik Paulson at www.erikpaulson.com or at his school in Orange County and get his opinion. Or how about Ron Balicki, Or Grand Master Leo Gaje, Grand Master Leo Giron or Chris Sayoc or the Atienza kali guys or Dave Gould of LAMECO (who visits this site) or Tim Tackett (who also visits this site) or a score of other world class martial artist and get their opinion of Dan and how he has helped them out.

The reason Dan Inosanto is the most influential is because of his humility and willingness to help out people from other systems get their foot in the door so to speak. He has helped more people get their own seminars going than anyone else. He is the main reaso nErik Paulson got started teaching seminars. He would take Erik with him as a training partner to all his seminars for a while.

Wsdddoa012: your right Guro Dan was an advance level Kenpo student.... He was a black belt under Ed Parker and was teaching many of the classes at Ed Parker's school.

Yes it is fact that Guro Dan and his students were doing MMA long before the UFC was ever thought of. Sifu Larry Hartsell has a training video from the early 1980's where he is teaching grappling techniques along with Jun Fan trapping and boxing and kickboxing. Then he shows you how to go from boxing range to grappling range... Does that sound like MMA to you?
Also, if you go back to the first post the guy said it is his opinion thatDan Inosanto is the most influential person out there. What is the difference between him having that opinion and you having yours?

What makes your opinion more valid than his? You answered with your opinion and now let it go. It is ok to have opposing views on people topics and things but state your opinion and let it go. Do we really need to get into all this BS about who is better than who...or what style is better than any other style?

You are starting to sound alot like the old Ashtanga... who by the way seem to have only one mission in life and that was to put down everyone associated with Dan as he pumped up his own Wing Chun.

Come on guys....let it go so we can get back to having civilized discussions on here about things that matter.

[Red Rum]

Is "helping" the same as "starting?" Has U.K. English changed that much? He did "help" to start many of the biggest tournaments in the US, and he did train with many of the premier stars of the genre. Those are uncontestable facts. .

Well when people say they helped to start (in my language) it means that they were there, helping to start the karate tournaments. And as I said this is nonsense. Karate tournaments were going on long before this.
I've trained with many of the 'premier stars of martial arts' - but it doesn't make me automatically influential or good at martial arts. In fact I have preferred training with lesser known guys who are better teachers.

As for the difference between inspriing and influencing, I don't think you do understand. You have almost reflexively fallen back on movie stars like Jet Li to make your case that there are "more influential people." You've used him specifically as an example of someone more influential than Dan Inosanto. So claim understanding all you like, but you're still misusing the example. If you understand the difference, but still use Jet Li as an example, then what you're doing is more than misunderstanding - it's outright misrepresentation. While we're on definitions, how would you define someone who uses an intentionally erroneous example to make a point?.

Not at all. It was an easy example. Jet Li has trained, worked, founded some of the best martial artists in the world. He has worked alongside some of the most famous martial artists in the world
Another perosn would be Sammo Hung who has done more for martial arts in the UK and US than many people realise

I don't think anyone here has once said Dan Inosanto is the most influential martial artist in the US. I think all have agreed that he is among the most influential. You seem to like leaving out the qualifiers like "among" (see also: "helped") in order to make your own arguments sound sane. In fact, there's nothing wrong or even vaguely inaccurate about saying that Dan Inosanto is one of the most influential martial artisits in the US. It is probably (that's a qualifier as well, so be sure to include it in your future misquotes) true that Dan Inosanto is one of the more influential instructors in the world. After 50-some years of training and teaching, multiple nominations and inclusions into various Halls-of-Fame, and serious and lasting innovations in training methods and techniques, it's very likely a distinction he's earned in all circles.
The real mystery is why you have a problem with that.

Kevin Chan has also been entered into several Hall of Fames, but again it is irrelevant. It wasn't said as 'one of the most influential'. Many people have stated (and I'm not saying you have Mike), that Inosanto was definitavely the most influential. This is bias on behalf of JKD people

Anyway this post bores me now. Goodbye

[fenwick99]

re

I think it would be wrong to disparage Guro Inosanto in order to enhance the status or importance of any wing chun teacher, no matter who it is or where he is from. Inosanto has studied wing chun for at least 20 years, and is very close to two noted teachers of wing chun: Hawkins Cheung (nephew of Wm.)
and Francis Fong. Inosanto has also studied internal kung fu arts with GGM Wai Lun Choi in Chicago. I hardly think that any rational person could count Inosanto as a detractor of Wing Chun, and I think if you would ask him he would say that he has nothing but respect for wing chun. As far as grappling was concerned, Inosanto and Chuck Norris were doing bjj with the Machado bro's
in the early 80s, or perhaps earlier. This was long before
the UFC or the grappling craze of the late 90s.
Inosanto also trained with the Japanese master who invented shootwrestling. And it would be impossible to catalogue the hundreds of top-flight martial artists of all systems that he has met or trained with over the years.

On a side note, all the great wing chun masters of the world should agree on an annual international wing chun tournament, to be held in Hong Kong, with awards for chi sao, full-contact fighting, forms, weapons, breaking, etc. Any master who thinks he is the best can send his top students, or perform himself. This sort of competition would allow wing chun practitioners to get some idea of the relative merit of various wc styles and systems.

[Red Rum]

On a side note, all the great wing chun masters of the world should agree on an annual international wing chun tournament, to be held in Hong Kong, with awards for chi sao, full-contact fighting, forms, weapons, breaking, etc. Any master who thinks he is the best can send his top students, or perform himself. This sort of competition would allow wing chun practitioners to get some idea of the relative merit of various wc styles and systems.

They do, but not everyone goes. The ones that do go have mixed (often disastrous) results.

[wsdddoa012]

response

Why is there always shooting down Bruce and Dan... I posted this in another thread in answer to RedRum and wanted to post it in here now that I have read the many post on this ridiculous topic.

I can tell you that the reason so many people believe that Guro Dan is the most influential person in the martial arts is because of what all he has done. He has done more than any other single martial artist out there to bring in other systems from outside the USA.

In the 1970's when he and Richard Bustillo were running the Kali Academy in Torrence, Ca. they would always bring in different Kali men to teach at the acadmey. They would bring in Floro Villabrille and Ben Largusa to teach Villabrille Kali. They would bring in Ted Lucaylucay Sr. who would teach everyone boxing and related everything to the blade. This was later called Panantukan. They would bring in Angel Cabables who would teach them his system of Serrada Escrima. Guro Dan also worked with Sifu Frances Fong in Wing Chun and helped spread the word about Wing Chun to those interested in WC. Later on Guro Dan brought in a Savate guy and had him start teaching at the Inosanto Academy and helped promote Savate to the rest of the country. He also brought in Master Chai and had him start teaching his Muay Thai at the Academy and then started promoting Muay Thai to the rest of the country. He had Edgar Sulite teach him LAMECO Eskrima then started promoting LAMECO Eskrima to the country and helped Edgar get his seminars going. In 1994 a gentleman by the name of Yori Nakamura came to the US for one reason... to learn JKD from Guro Dan. When he arrived Guro Dan asked Yori to show him what he had trained in Japan. Yori then showed Shootwresling as he had been taught by the founder Satoro Sayama. Guro Dan quikly called up Larry Hartsell to come down and see this style of fighting. Larry and Dan became students of Shootwrestling at that moment. A short time later Erik Paulson was introduced to it. Guro Dan had Yori start teaching Shoot at his school and began spreading the word on Shootwrestling at all his seminars.

When people say that he is the most influential person in the martial arts it is not any disrespect to any one else out there. It is just that Guro Dan has brought in people from arts other than what he was teaching or training at the time in order to introduce the rest of the country to what he saw as valuable. You can contact the Muay Thia Association of the USA and ask Master Chai what he thinks about Guro Dan. Or you can contact Erik Paulson at www.erikpaulson.com or at his school in Orange County and get his opinion. Or how about Ron Balicki, Or Grand Master Leo Gaje, Grand Master Leo Giron or Chris Sayoc or the Atienza kali guys or Dave Gould of LAMECO (who visits this site) or Tim Tackett (who also visits this site) or a score of other world class martial artist and get their opinion of Dan and how he has helped them out.

The reason Dan Inosanto is the most influential is because of his humility and willingness to help out people from other systems get their foot in the door so to speak. He has helped more people get their own seminars going than anyone else. He is the main reaso nErik Paulson got started teaching seminars. He would take Erik with him as a training partner to all his seminars for a while.

Wsdddoa012: your right Guro Dan was an advance level Kenpo student.... He was a black belt under Ed Parker and was teaching many of the classes at Ed Parker's school.

Yes it is fact that Guro Dan and his students were doing MMA long before the UFC was ever thought of. Sifu Larry Hartsell has a training video from the early 1980's where he is teaching grappling techniques along with Jun Fan trapping and boxing and kickboxing. Then he shows you how to go from boxing range to grappling range... Does that sound like MMA to you?
Also, if you go back to the first post the guy said it is his opinion thatDan Inosanto is the most influential person out there. What is the difference between him having that opinion and you having yours?

What makes your opinion more valid than his? You answered with your opinion and now let it go. It is ok to have opposing views on people topics and things but state your opinion and let it go. Do we really need to get into all this BS about who is better than who...or what style is better than any other style?

You are starting to sound alot like the old Ashtanga... who by the way seem to have only one mission in life and that was to put down everyone associated with Dan as he pumped up his own Wing Chun.

Come on guys....let it go so we can get back to having civilized discussions on here about things that matter.

Tim, I agree and I've said it before we need to let it go..

As far as who first started MMA even if it was in fact Guro Dan, politically it's not correct, you in fact cannot "mix styles" you can however "blend" styles techniques, for many styles are included with philosophy, whole systems and whatnot, it's more correct to say "blended martial arts" because in fact your actually blending the techniques together. Mixing Martial Arts you would say your blending different techniques as well as philosophies.

BTW: whose the person who came up with the whole MMA name?

As far as Guro Dan is concerned, this "chat" has been going on for a while, let it go, Guro Dan is a martial artist just like the rest of us, let him be.

FOR GOD SAKES!!! STOP BEATING A DEAD HORSE!!!

[lucidmist]

Look, if Wong Jak Man beat Bruce, you think Wong will be keeping quiet about it all these years??? He'd be ALL OVER THE NEWS, citing himself as THE man that beat Bruce Lee. Millions of bucks in media and students.

And why did he keep quiet?

Cos true, Bruce had a tough time with him, but Wong got his butt whooped and he can't claim otherwise cos there were witnesses!

[Red Rum]

Look, if Wong Jak Man beat Bruce, you think Wong will be keeping quiet about it all these years??? He'd be ALL OVER THE NEWS, citing himself as THE man that beat Bruce Lee. Millions of bucks in media and students.

And why did he keep quiet?

Cos true, Bruce had a tough time with him, but Wong got his butt whooped and he can't claim otherwise cos there were witnesses!

You also have to remember that people would have a tough time believing Wong if he came out saying that he beat Bruce (even if he did). As there is no real evidence either way, no-one will really ever know.

But does it really matter. Everyone has been beaten before. It is how good you fight, not always about the victories. I have beaten (through luck mostly) some very good fighters. And been beaten by not so good fighters.

I would rather be remembered for a great fight than whether I won or lost

[lucidmist]

tough time believing or not, human nature (greed) would still take the opportunity up.

[lucidmist]

and i read wong's own account of the fight. it was waaayyy too detailed. i've been in numerous fights, and there isn't one that i could remember the opening techniques and moves and whatnots from beginning of the fight till the end.

wong illustrated the fight as if he was a third person, or in this case, a scriptwriter. come on. in the heated fight, in the split second between having to dodge or defend himself, he could see EXACTLY what technique bruce was using, and spell it out??? please. if he was so focused on what shape bruce's hand was taking every few seconds, it is no wonder he got his hat handed to him.

either he was on the astral plane watching himself fight, or the puppet master was there.