Active knife defense!

[Spookey]

Dear All,

I am seeking your opinion regarding knife defense...Which of the following makes the most since and why?

1. Parry, attack, rapid retreat

2. Trapping and grappling techniques inside

THe reason I ask...last night during class, a new student (not knew to MA) and I where discussing knife defense. We eventually moved on to "knife defense / sparring" kinda thing. The techniques he had exibited theoretically were correct, however at 75% speed they had a high failure rate.
I then gave him the knife and we went the other way know at 75% speed, I took stab to the torso, and received two flesh wounds to the leg area.
Both of us have realistic views and know the possibility of getting cut in this type situation is very high (and somewhat acceptible) !

Please let me hear from as many of you as possible!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[eXcessiveForce]

grappling with a knife wielding attacker is suicide for most people.

mobility is key in knife defense. At 100% speed some trapping has worked for me, destructions have worked, but most of the time was evading and parrying.

[Green Ranger]

I learned some knife techniques from Mr. Richard Fike, at Superfoot Winter Camp last year. Try looking him up on the net or somethin...he has some videos out and a book...you may be able to find what your looking for.

GR

[brokenelbow]

Parry, attack, rapid retreat

Spooky, what do you mean by attack and with what result?

[MADDOG]

Hello Spookey,

You have asked the same question that my MA friend and I have been debating for the past three weeks. He has made a safe return from Thailland and he very motivated now to be very realistic and practical in addressing this issue.

Most MA knife defense has the attacker utilizing the knife in a one step sparring method. In real life the motion is continuous and humbling. We utilize a continuous motion in being attack but vary the speed depending on the defenders skill level. Our ultimate goal is to get to full speed and minimize the retaliatory strikes by the attacker, while incapacitating the attacker.

Here are some notes that we have gathered from our training and as with all MA it’s evolving:

[1] Continuous motion as the defender – do not be a fix target.
[2] Utilize your surroundings for an advantageous position to defend from.
[3] Utilize your surroundings for any tools / weapons that you can defend with.
[4] Against a skilled knife fighter – parrying striking to create maximum damage, either with your own weapon or hand to hand.
[5] Isolate the weapon and defang the snake. Destroy to limb that holds the knife.
[6] Mentally be prepared to bleed – question is how much and where you are going to bleed.
[7] Mentally be prepared to quickly eradicate the attacker – KISS – keep it simple stupid.
[8] Mentally have a goal to out live your attacker – even if it is just for a second more.

I also believe that in order to be proficient in defending a knife attack you should also be able to fight utilizing the knife.

Realize the type of individual that chooses a knife to attack you with. The knife many times is a weapon of impulse or convince. How many domestic disputes, involve a kitchen knife in the heat of a passionate debate? When an attacker premeditated chooses the knife they wish to be up close and personal with their victim. How many rapes utilize the knife as a weapon of intimidation?

Have you ever notice in class that when you start the knife defense portion of that’s night class, that the student’s attitudes become more serious and focus?

Thank you for posting this thread – this subject is very timely and no one has all the answers, especially me. Together, we can only suggest options that would work in theory –or- hopefully has worked in real life.

Keep kicking Spookey.

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[Spookey]

About the knife!

Maddog,

I agree with your compilation of info, specifically regarding "one-step training". This is the very reason that we do free sparring drills.
As relates to being prepared to bleed...we train bare footed and short sleeved, so that the "defender" can feel where specifically any contact is being made.
Please forgive my primary post as it uses alot of words with out much substance (I was suffereing from sleep depervation, and am normally far more articulate).
I am blessed to have an instructor from the original Oh Do Kwan available constantly. He was trained by and with the Korean Special Forces who we should all as TKD students (regardless of kwan affiliation) be aware were generally viewed as wonderful knife fighters and have always been reveared for their H2H ability as well as overall warrior spirit.

Below is some of my (mine and other associates) collective findings:

1. Proper distancing is imperative
2. When using the parry, attack, retreat, method most blade contact has been received by the frontal region of the lower leg and/or the hands and forearms and was of a slashing nature
3. When using trapping and grappling as the PRIMARY source of defense most blade contact was received by the lower torso and was of a stabbing nature
4. Joint destruction (trapping and grappling catagory) was only beneficial from an opportunistic (when it was openly available but not the primary method) point of view
5. Training, even in the early stages, should be done with continuous motion and at no less than 65% speed. (reasoning...all previous observation becomes useless under these conditions)
6. Stabbing motions offer the greatest opportunity for utilizing joint destruction for purposes of both disarming and incapacitating the attacker as they require greater commitment and therefore become more difficult to redirect
7. Slashing motions offer the defender great ability to disarm the attacker using strikes (#8 is related directly to disarming with strikes)
8. Dispite general ideology, it is far more effective to strike the elbow of the attacker during a slashing motion than to attack the hand area...Caution, when utilizing this method be prepared for the dislodged knife to come towards your face and torso (ie. keep your hands up)
9. When attacking the head of the opponent it is wise to retreat immediately unless the attacker is either knocked down or severly dazed (reasoning...strikes to the head do not reposition the attacker unless they drop him...if you can get a head strike you are very close to the attacker, if the strike does not immediately incapacitate the attacker you are then left very close to his weapon)
10. Longer range attacks to the body (ie. kicks) generally reposition the attacker making follow up motions more easily achievable

These finding come from studying real life attacks as well as studies conducted by way of realistic sparring done under a multitude of conditions and as realistically as possible without actually attacking each other with sharpenned knives!

Keep the conversation and sharing of practical info coming! If this thread fails to gain popularity then feel free to send private messages through the forum or contact me via e-mail!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[ChunGi]

hey spooky. I trained self defense for about 5 years in the beginign of my martial arts training. I also studied a russian military art called "systema" which was design to help u if u are being attacked my multiple defenders with many different weapons. I find that disarming or submitting your opposer is most important, i achieve this with limb breaks, pressure pionts, striker key pionts such as nerves,or disarming. The muscles in the arms are very weak at the shoulder and in some directions, u can use this to your advantage. knowing how many blades and which edges they are on can help aswell. if a single blade is inward toward the attackers body then u can grab the wrist and use ur forarm for leverage against the dull side of the knife. durring an attack stay at legs length fomr attacker keeping your arms up. Always be ready to move your body out of the way, durring a lungeing atack u can just turn your body sideways while stepping out of the way, doing this fast enough leaves teh knife going by you becasue the attacker is fallowing through with the stab. I will usually kick the hands of teh attacker attempting to break teh fingers and weaken there grip on the weapon. another thing that is helpful if in close to a knife is grab the wrist and slam the back of the hand with knife, with a fist. this will weaken the grip till u can push the hand to a 90 degree angle or more to disarm the attacker. this makes them drop the knife becasue the tendons in the back of yoru hand which open your fingers are not long enough to keep a tight grip on something when stretched that far. I have about a million more segestions so if u have a question PM me. later-