ITF Sparring

[Piston]

You need to go for it and be an ass one day and kick their legs so hard and seriously try to hurt them and you tell me if they still ignore your kicks. Most likely at the risk of your instructore getting pissed at you and saying your disrespectful for being real.

Not kicking the legs and saying you dont need to worry is like putting a boxer against a kicker and saying he is too good to care about kicks to his chest or head and strictly punching training is enough...

Dont forget knees as well or the freaking clinch!!! You know poomse tae guk chil jung right? There is a fricken clinch in that form plus a knee. Use it!!!

Don't take this the wrong way but I really don't want to be the 'hardcore' asshole who beats on the more timid and less sparring orientated in my class, we already have one of those, good thing for us though is that his kicks are so slow he usually has several fists in his face before much happens. I admire your passion to train and I wish I had a sparring partner with that level of dedication to his art, but these people in my class are friends and I'm not gonna make them limp home just so I can train harder.

Also I never said anything about knees.... Or how much I love 'em in close, much to the confusion of one of the guys from the MT school near us heheheh, I actually went for the 'tornado kick' (sounds like an over simplification of the word) 2 in a row, the 2nd time he tried to move in close so i simply cocked my leg back and used the knee for contact instead (we didn't go full contact in this match).....He was *not* expecting that.

[Andrew WA]

Thats awsome! The other day my training partner who is shotokan and I went out to spar a lot and we did a lot of randori type stuff and then we went all out and I actually made some good blows with spinning kicks. I did a lot of good leg kicks but he has a lot of strong punches and can really push me away hard.
Also there were times where I cuaght his leg and threw him. Taekwondo is a kicking art you wold think that in its curriculum that catching legs and escaping from legs being cuaght would be in its curriculum. Beause no matter how hard and fast you kick there will always be people who can catch them somewhere. Preparing for the unexpected is key!

I dont think anyone should be disrespectful in a class and break rules and kick people all over and hurt them. but I think there should be more schools willing to allow this type of sparring. Also I hope everyone can find a decent training partner who is all about self defense and fighting as well as being a true warrior and following the way. Lucky for me I have one. It would be nice to have more.

[Piston]

I think there would be more full contact sparring with 'anything goes' rules if it were not for two things:

1. The majority of people do not like to leave their 'comfort zone' and would not like to be injured or sore even if it did make them a tougher and better fighter.

2. Legal issues. If a TKD practitioner of TKD under the T.A.G.B loses the function of any amount of limbs or eyes, the T.A.G.B has to payout £25,000 on the insurance. If you become disabled temporarily in anyway the T.A.G.B has to pay £60 a week if you're over 16 or £5 a week if you're under 16. If the T.A.G.B wants to keep running its gotta injure the least amount of people possible.

People can still get injured quite easliy, just yesterday I was doing a sparring exercise where one combatant is only allowed to use legs and the other only arms, I was using legs, my opponent tried to close the distance on me to stop me kicking, but I brought my front foot up in a rising kick and caught him on the nose and forehead, not too hard mind you. It was only enough to bring water to his eyes, if I had hit him any harder I could have done some serious damage.

[Andrew WA]

There are plenty ways t practice fighting and being safe even without any rules.

Also i think there should be seperate tournament organizations that will allow TKD to be more open like kyokoshin.

Also isnt there a contract to sign relieving the organization from any responsibility if you get injured or killed?

There should be some instructors that are out to teach the warrior mindset with TKD to help people really know how to fight for real.

Why is it that so many other martial styles are successful and they have way more contact and no one is complaining about money issues and schools still are open and organizations still exist. I just dont think TKD has any real excuse to be in such a sad state as it is now.
It seems that if anyone wants to truly know TKD they have to leave their school, study with books go on their own and find likeminded people to train with. They have to forget their ego or their rank, or the rank their instructor is holding over their heads and teasing them with saying they can test in the near future and the future never comes. They have to just suck it up and train on their own like me. I do not belong to ANY school of TKD and I study the MA's on my own with other people for training partners and I have to read books to truly know my art and better understand concepts. Its like the only way to train hard. Your school wont let you train a certain way so you have to just leave and walk out and bring TKD up to its true level.

[Piston]

I don't think you can bring TKD up to it's true level by just reading books, up to a certain point yes, but as you progress you will need a decent, experienced teacher, one cannot simply learn any MA from a book.

I wouldn't know about the state of TKD in the ol' U.S of A, the only knowledge I get about that is from these forums, in the UK (hope you're enjoying the Prince and Camilla btw.....) we do have some similar problems, classes catering to little kids and a lot of people doing TKD just for the excercise aspect rather than having the 'warrior spirit'. But our instructors are not allowed to become terrible, as they are reviewed by the T.A.G.B quite regularly, mostly at gradings, if the T.A.G.B feels that your standard has dropped below a certain level they will take you teaching licence. I don't feel that I have to worry about my teacher's quality because she (thats right a she!) is the third best female ITF sparrer in the world, as decided at the TKD championships in Cardiff this year.

[npk9]

[QUOTE=Piston I don't feel that I have to worry about my teacher's quality because she (thats right a she!) is the third best female ITF sparrer in the world, as decided at the TKD championships in Cardiff this year.[/QUOTE]

Please don't take this the wrong way but I'm curious to know. When she spars - does she keep her hands up?

[Piston]

Of course, she's ITF not WTF, she actually will use her fists quite often because she's short and thus must move in close so she does not end up on the end of her opponents foot. I have sparred with her and whilst I might have range on my side she has experience, and is bloody quick.

[npk9]

Wow - thats great. Please excuse my ignorance but can you tell me the differences between the federations. I just see a lot of bickering on the internet between the advent followers.

[Piston]

WTF Tae Kwon Do:

This is the style of TKD one can watch in the olympics and is, as I gather, widely practiced across America and S.Korea. Recognisable by its graceful moves which consist entirely of kicks. Regarded as ineffective by most due to the lack of a recognisable guard. If you're still not sure its the TKD'ists who wear (in my opinon faggoty) chest guards.

ITF Tae Kwon Do:

This style of TKD is practised mostly in Europe and some parts of Asia. Similar to WTF in its focusing on kicks, but that is where the similarities end. In ITF in addition to learning excellent kicking skills, punching, elbows, knees, grabs and the use of knife-hand and finger-thrusting are also taught. ITF TKD practitioners are taught to keep a guard up at all times although there is no fixed stance, many practitioners opt for a boxing style guard or one that covers their chest and head amply.

There are other forms of TKD such as Songahm, Moo du Kwan and Chun do Kwan, but I don't know enough about these to comment.

[seanyseanybean]

Moo Duk Kwan is derived from Tang Soo Do, it was from when TKD was trying to unite all KA under the same name. The Tang Soo Do'ists who did this formed the Moo Duk Kwan style TKD. I study Tang Soo Do and by the sounds of it, it is very similar to ITF TKD.

[Piston]

I don't know that the General was trying to unite all the KA's under one MA, but he did draw from a lot of the MA's in Korea at his time, mostly the older KA of Tae Kyon and a lot of Japanese and Chinese techniques which hung around after the Japanese occupation.

I'm not really knowledgable on many of the other KA's like Tang Soo Do and Hwa Rang Do, so any information would be most welcome.

[Andrew WA]

I don't think you can bring TKD up to it's true level by just reading books, up to a certain point yes, but as you progress you will need a decent, experienced teacher, one cannot simply learn any MA from a book.

I wouldn't know about the state of TKD in the ol' U.S of A, the only knowledge I get about that is from these forums, in the UK (hope you're enjoying the Prince and Camilla btw.....) we do have some similar problems, classes catering to little kids and a lot of people doing TKD just for the excercise aspect rather than having the 'warrior spirit'. But our instructors are not allowed to become terrible, as they are reviewed by the T.A.G.B quite regularly, mostly at gradings, if the T.A.G.B feels that your standard has dropped below a certain level they will take you teaching licence. I don't feel that I have to worry about my teacher's quality because she (thats right a she!) is the third best female ITF sparrer in the world, as decided at the TKD championships in Cardiff this year.

I think a person should go to a school and learn what he can from a teacher and then on his own time learn more and read on the history and doctrine of the art and learn more things and find other MA people train with outside of class. But sometimes once you get a black belt you might find out that your school is not worth your time anymore and you might want to find a better MA school of your art or if you cant you need to go at it alone like me.

Anyway in the UK is there a law that every TKD school has to be in the TAGB? What if someone just makes up their own school and is in their own organization? That happens in the USA a lot so thats why crap schools come about.

Anyway if you go to a tournament school and it sounds like you do, the sparring you do there isnt going to help you out as much as when you do no rules.

By the way I have a Great Brittain ITF Taekwondo book from green to red belt I bought at a book store here. I am trying to learn the ITF forms but the book is horrible at explaining the movements and the pictures are bad and the guys have bad technique. Not saying your country is bad its just the book.

Also I dont pay attention to the tabloids about the prince or queen or whatever...I dont even care. But who is camilla is it his new girlfriend?

[Andrew WA]

WTF Tae Kwon Do:

This is the style of TKD one can watch in the olympics and is, as I gather, widely practiced across America and S.Korea. Recognisable by its graceful moves which consist entirely of kicks. Regarded as ineffective by most due to the lack of a recognisable guard. If you're still not sure its the TKD'ists who wear (in my opinon faggoty) chest guards.

ITF Tae Kwon Do:

This style of TKD is practised mostly in Europe and some parts of Asia. Similar to WTF in its focusing on kicks, but that is where the similarities end. In ITF in addition to learning excellent kicking skills, punching, elbows, knees, grabs and the use of knife-hand and finger-thrusting are also taught. ITF TKD practitioners are taught to keep a guard up at all times although there is no fixed stance, many practitioners opt for a boxing style guard or one that covers their chest and head amply.

There are other forms of TKD such as Songahm, Moo du Kwan and Chun do Kwan, but I don't know enough about these to comment.

What you said about ITF is basically the same stuff I was tuaght in WTF. The only difference is the tournament rules and the focus for tournament fighting in the WTF more then self defense.

And moo du kwan and chung do kwan are not federations, they are just names of some of the original martial art schools in korea that banded together to create TKD. and Sangahm is the name of a set of forms that are pretty old. I dont know who teaches them but I would like to learn.

[Andrew WA]

I don't know that the General was trying to unite all the KA's under one MA, but he did draw from a lot of the MA's in Korea at his time, mostly the older KA of Tae Kyon and a lot of Japanese and Chinese techniques which hung around after the Japanese occupation.

I'm not really knowledgable on many of the other KA's like Tang Soo Do and Hwa Rang Do, so any information would be most welcome.

It wasnt just the general. A lot of people wnated TKD to be united. The general just pretty much came up with the name of Taekwondo and pushed the name to be accepted and he created the ITF forms and all that. He is considered to be the father of TKD but there were a lot of people atthe same time trying to unite the 10 original Korean schools.

Basically most of the KAs at the time were Japanese karate influenced. I know one school had a lot of chinese influence but I forgot which one. Since Japan occupied Korea they trashed their culture and made it illiegal to speak Korean and do Korean things so most of the old KAs were lost, and some were preserved by hiding in secret and teaching. But Taekwondo is basically shotokan karate whether Koreans want to admit it or not. Taekwondo is mostly shotokan then any other martial art.
The ancient korean arts people talk about were basically just chinese kung fu. Taekyon does influence TKD by having the philosophy that kicking is supurb over punching but TKD is not truly an ancestor of it totally. Its just the General thought Taekwondo sounded a lot like Taekyon-do and it is fitting to give it that kind of name for the same of Korean pride.

Hwa rang do is the way of the hwa rang knights of Korean. it was a warrior class. "The flowering manhood." They were swordsmen as well and studied a lot of scholarship as well. But Hwa rang Do is also the name of a new modern martial art from Korean that truly has no ties to the hwa rang knights and is just a name to describe some new modern teachers martial system. In my opinion its stupid to do that.

[Piston]

I think a person should go to a school and learn what he can from a teacher and then on his own time learn more and read on the history and doctrine of the art and learn more things and find other MA people train with outside of class. But sometimes once you get a black belt you might find out that your school is not worth your time anymore and you might want to find a better MA school of your art or if you cant you need to go at it alone like me.

Hmm... I don't know about that, remember in TKD a BB means you've only mastered the basics rather than total mastery. I was talking to my teacher and she told me that many simply give up advancing through the dans because the exams are too tough for them. Absoloutely nothing wrong with studying from the books, thats what they're there for, but its my belief that they are to compliment what your teacher teaches you rather than replace it.

Anyway in the UK is there a law that every TKD school has to be in the TAGB? What if someone just makes up their own school and is in their own organization? That happens in the USA a lot so thats why crap schools come about.

I think if a TKD school tries to start up in the UK without the T.A.G.B's appreciation, it becomes incredibly difficult for it to get anywhere i.e no assistance financially, no advertisement except your own, no participation in recognised gradings, no validation for tournaments.

Anyway if you go to a tournament school and it sounds like you do, the sparring you do there isnt going to help you out as much as when you do no rules.

No ours is most definetly not a tournament school, only two of us from the class (myself included) are participating in the British opens (27th November in Coventry y'all!), our teacher views the tournaments as entirely optional not something to aspire to, and views them as a means of a.) social gathering for all TKD'ists and b.) for teachers to compare their teaching methods through their students.

By the way I have a Great Brittain ITF Taekwondo book from green to red belt I bought at a book store here. I am trying to learn the ITF forms but the book is horrible at explaining the movements and the pictures are bad and the guys have bad technique. Not saying your country is bad its just the book.

I think I have precisely the same book, produced by A & C Black am I correct? Do remember that they have to pose for each photo without movement and thus they may not look as they would in real life. I'm not sure what else you really want out of the pictures mate, they look fine to me, plus I think the technique looks fine, their feet and hands are all in the correct positions. You may also want to start with the White belt to yellow belt books first (I'm not being patronising) simply because of the huge gap in between ITF and WTF. Perhaps maybe you've been training only through books for too long?

Also I dont pay attention to the tabloids about the prince or queen or whatever...I dont even care. But who is camilla is it his new girlfriend?

His new wife actually, but we don't care over here much either.