Hapkido!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hapkiyoosool]

Hapkido from a traditional point of view out of South Korea.
Video and website link.

[WildWest.]

Hapkido is a good, practical self defence style and is taught to the Korean army's special forces. How do I know? Our Hapkido Grandmaster used to teach them as well as the US forces in Vietnam. This doesn't make it any better or worse than any other style, but this is what it should be about i.e. no nonsense self defence.

Hapkido is more technical than some styles to learn, but with diligence and the right attitude to training you will understand it and clearly see what its principles are and how you can use them. Hapkido can be as dirty as you want or as nice as you want. There really is no limit to what you can learn from the style as it seems to be about if it works for you then use it.

Hapkido and TKD are not the same arts and any TKD school that claims to teach it in conjunction with their TKD classes are fooling you and themselves. They are very different. The core of Hapkido is locking techniques, chokes, joint manipulation, throws, pressure points, escapes, break falls, and effective striking techniques such as simple punches, elbows, knees, , kicks, eye gouges, throat strikes, groin strikes, palm strikes etc etc. There are also ground fighting techniques as well, particularly as a lot of the techniques you learn on your feet can be adapted to the ground. Although I must stress that it is not BJJ and cannot be compared to it. The ground stuff is designed for you to have an understanding of what to do if the fight goes to the ground and how you can cope against an opponent who has no formal ground fighting experience. If you try and take a BJJ black belt to the ground then, all things being equal, yoo would most likely lose. Fortunately most street thugs are not BJJ black belts so its focus for training is not ground combat.

Hapkido is also widely used by military and law enforcement agencies around the world, but that is not to say it is any better ot worse than other styles that are also used by the same agencies. It is not a sport and shouldn't be considered as such. To my knowledge there is no sport side to it and if there is it would be a very watered down version of it...like most sport Martial Arts.

TKD however is primarily a kicking art that has evolved into a sport. They only play with some of Hapkido's self defence techniques without really understanding the mechanics behind them or the many various applications of them. This is not to say TKD is less of an art than Hapkido or any other style, this is just what the differences are.

Like all styles, how you train, the mentality and effort you put into training and the competence of the instructor will make the difference when learning Martial Arts. Should you decide to take it up then I wish you luck and hope you realise that it is a life long journey.

[Tom Yum]

Wild West, welcome to the site.

Hapkido isn't too shabby of an art. IMHO traditional hapkido is a little rigid in terms of combat, but the modern masters (Pelligrini, Burress and others) focus more on more realistic combat.

You still get the over the shoulder arm break into hip toss, nice standing locks set up with strikes, but the strikes are done at more realistic speeds with the modern combat hapkido guys. Plus they integrate what works from the traditional cirriculum with stuff from other arts such as kyokushin and BJJ>

I miss hapkido's breakfall training. That was overall good conditioning for the body to take impact.

[treelizard]

I miss hapkido's breakfall training. That was overall good conditioning for the body to take impact.

How is hapkido breakfall training different than breakfalls in other arts?

I've only done like half a class in breakfalls, all I know is tuck your chin (unless you're falling forward) throw out your lead leg, fall on yr back and slap the matt.

[Siipher]

I dont know what it is like in other martial arts, but you learn break falls falling forwards, backwards and sideways in Hap Ki Do. THe idea is to create as large a surface as you can get to spread out the impact, so you try to have your legs hips back and arms hit at the exact same moment. Of course your head must remain off the ground at all times because your not going to achive anything by slamming that into the ground aswell :P

[treelizard]

Interesting... I've learned...fall/tap. Like a half step later. Like, fall is move number 1 and tap is move 1.5, where you spread the impact on your body out through your hands. It works pretty well (on matts that is). I wanna learn how to roll though.

[hapkiyoosool]

Wild West, welcome to the site.

Hapkido isn't too shabby of an art. IMHO traditional hapkido is a little rigid in terms of combat, but the modern masters (Pelligrini, Burress and others) focus more on more realistic combat.

You still get the over the shoulder arm break into hip toss, nice standing locks set up with strikes, but the strikes are done at more realistic speeds with the modern combat hapkido guys. Plus they integrate what works from the traditional cirriculum with stuff from other arts such as kyokushin and BJJ>

I miss hapkido's breakfall training. That was overall good conditioning for the body to take impact.

I hate to oppose your opinion of traditional Hapkido. Not in a bad way.
Alain Burrese, Frank Clay, others and I have talked about this in detail at times and we all agree on this:There are many styles of Hapkido and all are taught according to how they were taught and their personal choices and experiences. Myself included.

Traditional Hapkido worked in the battlefields for many generations against multiple real people with real weapons and people still attack the same way in that they must get to you first. We have not grown any extra appendages. Do you agree?

I can honestly say that having grown up in Korea and using the "traditional Hapkido" I learned in Korea has NEVER let me down. Example of our style on videoNot even a problem against the "American Style" attacks of "windmill punches" and wild aggressive attacks I have encoutered here in the states. Actually, I would say that it's easier to defend against these "uncontrolled" attacks. They are already off balance and out of control. I do have to agree that it does "seem" more rigid by looks but so does Daito-Ryu compared to Aikido. I wouldn't suggest grabbing a Daito-Ryu instructor and saying that they look too rigid as your arm snaps off. ^_^ Hurts just thinking about it, oooohh.

The rigidity or more attention to form in class leads to a more controlled defense on the street. It's all about balance. You become thier balance as soon as they attack because they are expecting you to "catch" their balance by absorbing their attack and they actually "lean" on you while they do it. They are trying to "touch" you. When someone tries to grab you and you simply move out of the way, they fall down. I saw a guy break his kneecap and sprain his wrists just trying to grab my wife's purse at the mall. She stepped out of the way and chopped him in the neck as he went by and WHAMMO! It happened so fast that no one knew what really happened. Not even the people who saw it happen! They thought he just tripped. My wife really likes her purse. I really like concrete!!! It is my friend!

As far as "ground fighting". Not into that. Not me anyway. I don't want to roll around on broken glass or other things that may be there.
The whole point of Hapkido and using the others guys balance is to stay on your feet at all costs. The Ground techniques we teach are to get to your feet as quicly as possible to re-establish your balance. The same exact techniques you use standing are effective when on the ground as well. The body does not change form or function on the ground. It is simply the same techniques done in such a way as to break them and get back on your feet. There is NEVER just ONE attacker. If you spent too much time on the ground wrestling with one guy, the others will stab you to death. Personal experience talking. I have seen it happen unfortunately.

This post is entirely too long, Sorry.

[Siipher]

Good point, about a year ago our studio had an instructor come back from Japan where he was teaching Hap Ki Do and he was running us through this drill where one person attacked you and right after that person had grabbed another came at you and you had to control the first guy and keep him between you and the other person till you had an opportunity to finnish off the first guy and be ready for the second... ofcourse it was not as easy as it sounds... only a few people could do it effectively but it was definately one of my favorite drills.

[Tom Yum]

Traditional Hapkido worked in the battlefields for many generations against multiple real people with real weapons and people still attack the same way in that they must get to you first. We have not grown any extra appendages. Do you agree?

Actually Hapkido was created in the mid 20th century by a Korean gentleman who studied Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and combined it with the national Korean arts at the time. I could be wrong, so any correction is welcome.

I know Hapkido works.

The main critique that I have is that you learn hundreds of techniques by the time you reach black belt. Why not condence those techniques into concepts and boil down to the ones that work?

You brought up an interesting point about instructors teaching according to their 'lineage' and the way they were taught. That has an influence too.

[hapkiyoosool]

Right On!

Actually Hapkido was created by a Korean gentleman who studied Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and combined it with the national Korean arts at the time. I could be wrong, so any correction is welcome.

You are right. Choi, Yong-Sul is the founder of Hapkido. That is our lineage. THe techniques have been around for a while.
Hapkido History

The main critique that I have is that you learn hundreds of techniques by the time you reach black belt. Why not condence those techniques into concepts and boil down to the ones that work?

I am glad you brought that up! We actually have condensed it, well Grandmaster Chang did anyway. There are only 12 basic ways the body joints manipulate. Thus we have 12 basic techniques accordingly to black belt and thousands of applications according to how you are attacked.

[Tom Yum]

There are only 12 basic ways the body joints manipulate. Thus we have 12 basic techniques accordingly to black belt and thousands of applications according to how you are attacked.

But you don't need 1,000 applications, right?

I understand this is good for preserving the art but when you're heart is racing, adrenaline is pumping and you're getting tunnel vision you're best off with about 5 or six techniques that you've done 1,000 times against a little bit of resistance.

Again, I'm not saying its ineffective.

From what I've read, the Korean arts were taught to US special forces and marines during the Vietnam war. Many of the instructors of the arts were Korean themselves and have documented testimony of their effectiveness, including awards and accounts from officers.

Still I'm tempted to say that the most combat effective Korean art is the tukong musool system since the style is combat focused. They put traditional techniques to work in sparring and grappling.

[WildWest.]

Tom Yum> Thank you for welcoming me to the website.

Its very interesting reading the posts that have recently been posted, especially regarding Hapkiyoosool who has trained in Hapkido in Korea and the idea that there are only 12 basic to manipulate the body joints. Probably correct and then you learn how to use them! I was told by my instructor that there are something like 3800 Hapkido techniques, certainly there must be many crossovers but slightly different variations according to how your opponent reacts, the size of the opponent, the way the fight is flowing etc, obviously you cannot recall them all under the pressure of a fight situation so you will choose your favourites. The theory is that combat is like water flowing down a river. When it meets an obstruction it adjusts its direction but still keeps on flowing to get to its destination. So when in a fight the Hapkido exponent can adjust their techniques according to the way the fight is going. I like this concept because it throws any rigid formal techniques out the window and goes with what techniques feel natural to the individual and how far the exponent wants/needs to defend themself.

I have only been learning Hapkido for 2 years after learning 2 predominantly striking styles since I was 12 so I hope I explained myself properly. I don't claim to know it all and am grateful to any advice from those who have studied Hapkido longer than me.

[Tom Yum]

How is hapkido breakfall training different than breakfalls in other arts?

I've only done like half a class in breakfalls, all I know is tuck your chin (unless you're falling forward) throw out your lead leg, fall on yr back and slap the matt.

There are 5 different break falls, which can be converted to rolls if you are thrown out instead of slammed down. Yeah, you create greater surface area by breakfalling and spread out the impact on your body.

What I like about breakfalls is that done regularly, they also strengthen your body. You can eventually practice breakfalls on progressively harder surfaces. The idea is to be able to work up to a leaping front break fall onto the mats before you do it on regular floor, then on a surface like track

[hapkiyoosool]

But you don't need 1,000 applications, right?

I understand this is good for preserving the art but when you're heart is racing, adrenaline is pumping and you're getting tunnel vision you're best off with about 5 or six techniques that you've done 1,000 times against a little bit of resistance.

Again, I'm not saying its ineffective.

From what I've read, the Korean arts were taught to US special forces and marines during the Vietnam war. Many of the instructors of the arts were Korean themselves and have documented testimony of their effectiveness, including awards and accounts from officers.

Still I'm tempted to say that the most combat effective Korean art is the tukong musool system since the style is combat focused. They put traditional techniques to work in sparring and grappling.

Like others have posted in here. There are 12 basic techniques and you must react to how your attacked. You do need the thousands applications, absolutely! Take Aiki-Jujutsu for instance. Their first bacsic technique is called Ikkajo (first teaching). You can do Ikkajo form a hundred different application depending how your attacked and how they react to it. That is what we teach. Our style is directly from Daito-Ryu-Aikijujutsu. You can see the same exact techniques in the Daito-Ryu schools as ours. That is what we are trying to say. 12 basic joint manipulations that you use accordingly. We pracice the 12 everyday in every class. They work. We do attack each other at full speed and full power in every class. Just like military special operation trains everyday in controlled environments as to practice for the real thing. Realistic training breeds realisitc results.

As far as saying

the most combat effective Korean art is the tukong musool system since the style is combat focused. They put traditional techniques to work in sparring and grappling.

You shouldn't say things like that. ALL martial(military) arts are combat focused (or were at one time). There is a huge difference between sport and combat(traditional). For instance, our federation is banned from competition in Korea and Japan because of the effects it has on the body. Not because we are "too deadly to spar". You can't tap out of a technique if you don't know its coming. You WILL have a dislocated appendage with traditional techniqes if you do not "go with the technique". With striking arts, you can control the power of the strike so it is "friendly" for competition or simple dodge it, much like boxing. Example> If I were to apply a "friendly" technique to someone's joint and they panic, try to squirm away(fight/resist it), they will seriously hurt themself. The tradition arts are taught with this in mind, the attacker will most likely try to get away. Resistance is futile. They will dislocate their own joints. I have seen it more times than I wish to count. In class with the new "that won't work on me" tough guy student, in the streets, and in real military combat.

The point is. Learning a basic set of joint manipulations to lock out joints and tearn them apart is very effective. One can apply a single technique hundreds of ways. Grab my wrist,throat, arm, leg, punch, or kick. I can apply the SAME technique according to HOW you attack. That is what makes up the thousands of techniques when in reality there are only really 12 basic way to manipulate the joints. Joints: hinge(knee/elbow), ball and socket(shoulder/hip), saddle(fingers/toes), complex(wrist/ankle), and pivot(spine).
There are only so many ways to manipulate these into displacement(comes out and goes back in by itself with release) or complete dislocation(throws from a joint lock with no recovery). "Joint Lock" refers to locking the joint so they cannot move it without your approval(immobilization). Moving beyond or through the lock produces the tendons and ligaments to tear and the joint releases. It is their choice, if they are a single attacker (like a drunk friend), you immobilize them until they pass out or comply(give up). If you have multiple attackers(with ot without weapons), deal with them up as and how they come at you. You have not the time to "fight" with one guy(multiple strikes to one target or rolling on the ground grappling/wrestling for example) as the next one tries to hit/grab/stab you from behind. Don't "marry" your attackers, use them and throw them away. Attackers are diposable when they are at your disposal. Like my instructor (Grandmaster Chang, Young-Shil) has told many unsuccessful attackers, "You TRY to touch my body, just one time, THEN, you not touch me again!" LOL

I hope this helps any confusion.

[McDaniel]

how does the ranking system work in hapkido?