Hapkido!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ryanhall]

I guess that settles that.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by GRACIEAUSTIN
I own a 2nd degree Black Belt in Hapkido. It is a primative form of Jiu-Jitsu. Go to a good Jiu-Jitsu School. Or MMA school with Pro fighters (that are winning fights) training at the facility.

I agree. I own a black-brown belt. When I started training in the early 90's MMA did not exist, BJJ was mostly unheard of and Gracie Jiujitsu had a 2" x 2" ad in Black Belt Magazine with the title "Gracie Challenge", remember? The credibility came from Chuck Norris's quote in the ad:

"A man with 6 months experience in Gracie Jiujitsu could beat a man with 20 years experience in any art" - Chuck Norris.

In 92 or 93, a 3rd degree Shaolin Kempo instructor (some Hawaiian guy) took the Gracie challenge, documented it on Black Belt Mag and went against Royler (??) who was a 1st degree BB in Gracie JJ at the time.

In the first round the Kempo guy got taken down via a clinch, into an inner leg reap?? The Gracie guy got the mount and pummeled with a few palm strikes.

2nd round, Kempo guy throws a thigh level sidekick which pauses Gracie for about 2 seconds, but Gracie advances for a double leg takedown, rolls the guy over, pummels the back of his head (causing him to cover up) and sinks in a rear naked choke. Classic Gracie vs. Karate match.

Do you guys remember this? I still have the mag...lol.

[Thai Bri]

Thats cool. I saw a review of the first UFC in an English mag. I hadn't heard of GJJ, or even Shoot fighting. It blew me away. When the video came out (funnily enough, UFC2 came out here befoere UFC1) I couldn't believe it.

Looking back they wre just exposing a martial arts myth. Everyone had presumed that grappling arts were irrelevant, thinking that a grappler would have no chance getting close because of the deadly strikes of his opponent. How wrong we all were.

But, getting things in perspective, grappling is just one part of the puzzle, albeit an important one. Well rounded is definitely the way to go.

But the MA world owes an incredible debt to the Gracies. Easily as much as what is owed to Bruce Lee. We now have martial artists who can actually fight, whereas that used to be comparitivley rare.

[Szczepankiewicz]

We now have martial artists who can actually fight

And not a single one of them is from England.

[ryanhall]

Hey, Spanky. How did that seminar with Alain Burrese go?

[blade_cs]

Originally posted by Tom Yum


I agree. I own a black-brown belt. When I started training in the early 90's MMA did not exist, BJJ was mostly unheard of and Gracie Jiujitsu had a 2" x 2" ad in Black Belt Magazine with the title "Gracie Challenge", remember? The credibility came from Chuck Norris's quote in the ad:

"A man with 6 months experience in Gracie Jiujitsu could beat a man with 20 years experience in any art" - Chuck Norris.

In 92 or 93, a 3rd degree Shaolin Kempo instructor (some Hawaiian guy) took the Gracie challenge, documented it on Black Belt Mag and went against Royler (??) who was a 1st degree BB in Gracie JJ at the time.

In the first round the Kempo guy got taken down via a clinch, into an inner leg reap?? The Gracie guy got the mount and pummeled with a few palm strikes.

2nd round, Kempo guy throws a thigh level sidekick which pauses Gracie for about 2 seconds, but Gracie advances for a double leg takedown, rolls the guy over, pummels the back of his head (causing him to cover up) and sinks in a rear naked choke. Classic Gracie vs. Karate match.

Do you guys remember this? I still have the mag...lol.

Oh........ that's cool

You think you can scan the article for us?

thanks

[swan104]

I remember the first time I saw a UFC video. It was one of the earlier UFC matches where the combatants weren't as well-rounded as they are now. Nowadays, the sport has evolved and you find the athletes aiming for completeness in order to win the game. At the time, I knew nothing about grappling and even prefer the guys to fight stand up (for the blood and gore value). The guy who lent me the UFC video even said he hated it when the two grapplers went to the ground because the match became boring. At the time, I agreed with him.

Nowadays, I love watching, and learning about grappling. I haven't seen any Pride FC yet, but I've heard it's better than the UFC from a technical perspective. It just comes to show how things have evolved in the past ten years.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by blade_cs


Oh........ that's cool

You think you can scan the article for us?

thanks

I don't have access to a scanner. If you're in H-town, I'd gladly lend it to you. I checked Black Belt Mags archives and found it!!!

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/apr92/graciejujitsu/graciejujitsu.html

THE MAN WHO ACCEPTED THE GRACIE JUJITSU CHALLENGE-AND LOST!

by Scot Conway

Most people in the martial arts community are familiar by now with the Gracie jujitsu challenge: the Gracie brothers have offered to take on all comers to demonstrate the effectiveness of their Brazilian jujitsu. Rorion Gracie, the head instructor at the Torrance, California, Gracie Jujitsu Academy, notes that the challenge has been open for over half a century, and that Gracie jujitsu stands virtually undefeated. The terms of engagement are simple: one on one, no weapons, no eye gouges, and no groin strikes. There is some latitude for negotiation, as long as the adjustments in terms are reasonable.
As a former student of kara-ho kempo instructor Sam Kuoha, I was satisfied with the street effectiveness of kempo karate, yet I wondered how my style would stack up against a skilled grappler. One thing about grapplers: if they are really good, you have no choice but to play their game. Most punches and all kicks require a certain amount of space to execute properly. If a grappler successfully closes the distance and starts wrestling with you, an arsenal of punches and kicks is suddenly useless. A good combat grappler simply will not leave himself open for striking maneuvers.
Although a black belt in kempo, I knew my grappling skills were marginal. I wanted to learn more on the subject, and what better way to do so than to accept the Gracie challenge?
My intent was not to beat the Gracies; after all, if no one else had defeated them in 50-plus years, I shouldn't expect to be the first. I simply wanted to learn more about their style. I didn't want theory, I wanted application. I didn't want competition jujitsu, I wanted street grappling. And I felt the best way to get such information was to fight a grappler. And if you're going to fight a grappler, why not fight the best? So I telephoned the Gracie Academy to set up a match, and they accepted.

Many people have leveled criticism at the Gracies, calling their challenge arrogant, but in the conversations leading up to my scheduled contest, Rorion Gracie was always courteous and polite. He had the tone of man who was very confident. Some might interpret his manner as condescending, but when you're undefeated, confidence can come across that way. He was always very respectful toward me, and very businesslike. Rorion impressed me as a man who was concerned about the self-defense quality of martial arts. Both of us believed that many self-defense applications taught in martial arts schools today are just theory, and all too often fail when the student needs them the most.

The day of the match soon rolled around, and 1, along with two of my students, drove up from San Diego to the Gracie Academy in Torrance. I would be facing not Rorion, but his 25-year-old brother Royler, who was five-foot-nine, weighed 140 pounds, was a third-degree black belt in jujitsu, and was "born on the mat," according to Rorion. I too am five-foot-nine, but I am only a first-degree black belt and gave away several years in experience to my adversary. But I weighed in at 165 pounds-25 more than Royler, so I was still enthusiastic as I stepped out on the mat and the fight began.
Royler made the first move, but I didn't respond immediately. I waited until the moment I thought I would have had the legal right of self-defense if the bout had taken place on the street. By then, it was too late. Royler got on my back, locked himself in, and started pummeling me. I managed a groin grab, but anyone with street fighting experience knows that adrenaline will allow a fighter to ignore the effects of even such a damaging move until after the bout. The pain the opponent experiences can even become a motivating force, driving the attacker on to even greater violence.


The Fight

I tried to find a way out of the hold, but found that my grappling skills were not up to the task. Royler, meanwhile, continued to pummel my head. He could not hit especially hard while maintaining his grip, and I thought I could probably take several minutes of the pounding before slipping into unconsciousness. But since Royler had me in a hold, he could take as long as he needed. So I called the fight, and gave round one to Gracie jujitsu.
As my students tended to my injuries. I had time to reflect on the bout. My conclusion: you can't wait very long to counter if your opponent knows how to grapple.

Rorion Gracie has offered to put his Gracie jujitsu up against any other style to prove the effectiveness of his Brazilian brand of jujitsu. So far, the results are in Gracie jujitsu's favor.
After a few minutes, I decided to have another go at it. Realizing that I wouldn't be able to escape once Royler had me in a good hold, I decided I would call the second fight if and when a hold was locked in. This time I took a slightly more aggressive posture and tried to fend off Royler's advance with a low side kick. It worked . . . for about a second. Royler moved in just as I rechambered the leg and, before I could throw another technique, I was grabbed again. This time, however, I managed to catch Royler in a more vulnerable position and my heel struck him hard twice on the back. I attempted a scissors lock, but Royler escaped and once again climbed on my back. I took one hit and called the bout. Royler was visibly upset, but honored the terms of the contest and halted his attack. Game, set and match to Gracie jujitsu.
Both bouts were very short: the first lasted about 45 seconds and the second was over in approximately half a minute. If they had been real fights and had been allowed to reach a natural conclusion, I almost cer- tainly would have been pummeled into unconsciousness; Royler had me at his mercy.
Weeks later, I was still wondering if I had taken the right approach to the match. After all, there were a number of techniques in my kempo arsenal that I had never considered using: joint- and neck-breaking maneuvers, groin smashes, and a host of other potentially debilitating moves. The problem is, how can you justify severely injuring someone who is just wrestling with you? If such dangerous techniques had been successfully applied, I would likely be sitting in a California prison, serving time for aggravated assault. Deep down, I do not really believe that many of the aforementioned techniques could have been successfully applied against Royler. While some options do appear available to me on the videotape of the match, the dynamics of the actual fight prevented them.
I came to several conclusions after the match. First, you can't rely on striking techniques against a good grappler-not if you intend to fight within the bounds of the law. Second, if you wait until a grappler has done enough to warrant the legal use of self-defense, it will probably be too late to strike back effectively. And third, if you hope to legally defeat a grappler, you had better be skilled in the art of grappling.
Many in the martial arts community speak of what they would do if pitted against the Gracie brothers. Most of these individuals generally claim superiority over the Gracie technique-and perhaps they could defeat the Gracies in a match. But until they have actually stepped onto the mat with one of the Gracies and proven their point, it's all simply idle chatter. For one on one fighting without weapons, I discovered that Gracie jujitsu is tough to beat.
I will forever be remembered as a man who once fought Royler Gracie, and lost. But what I won was far more important. I won knowledge, experience and insight. And for a martial arts instructor, that is victory enough.

[Szczepankiewicz]

Hey, Spanky. How did that seminar with Alain Burrese go?

It's coming up on the 12th of this month.

Turn out is low, but we're going ahead come hell or high water!


Once we have it I'll post a complete synopsis with pictures so y'all can see Alain wiping the floor with me.

Spanky

[ryanhall]

Cool.

[Thai Bri]

Tom - thanks for posting that. It was fascinating.

[Tom Yum]

you're quite welcome guys.

Looking forward to also hearing about Spanky's HKD seminar.

[wutang]

I think that the clueless factor that BJJ had over other arts is now over. I have a purple belt in BJJ (haven't trained in two years though) with prior experience in Hapkido, Kickboxing (American), Kung-Fu (Southern Shaolin), and Tae Kwon Do. I started BJJ because I was, like most standup trained guys, clueless in groundfighting. Even though I trained in bjj for over 5 years, I can say without a doubt that the master level instructors in Hapkido and Kung-Fu would still be able to beat me in a real fight. When you are at a high level in any art, it's the person and not the art itself which is the most important. The Hapkido instructor was an 8th dan with 20+ years experience and could honestly take on several opponents at once (several policemen can vouch for that). I don't think any BJJ guy can claim that. My Kung-fu instructor was the inheritor of his art and was truly a frightening guy. I don't think I saw anyone at his studio who knew 10% of what he did and we had regular open challenge matches on Saturdays back then where Bando, Kickboxing and other tough-guys came to test their skills. But as he always said, this isn't real fighting. In an all-out fight, I would pick him over my BJJ instructor. That being said, for the everyday joe martialarts dude who trains 2-3 times a week and maybe everyday just before a sport tournament, BJJ is probably the best because it's easy to pick-up quickly. But don't expect to beat true masters in any art with a blue belt. At least not in a real "no rules " fight.

[falcon3624]

The only problem is that there are not that many "true masters" still around......that is something that is definately on the decline in my opinion. I have always trained in striking arts before a few years ago when I took up BJJ which I also cross-train in MT. I traveled around to a bunch of different schools and tried many different styles. I have been doing martial arts since I was 5 and although I am not a master of any art I have taken on and beaten several so called "masters" from several different arts. I know there are many masters out there that are much better than me and I respect that, but one thing is true in any art......sparring is one thing and street fighting is another.

I have been witness to a several "masters" that could basically tear apart anyone that stepped into there class, yet would fight on the street and would be beaten easily. Sparring and streetfighting are two totally different thing. When you talk about sparring you are talking about fighting with rules and when you talk about street fighting you are talking about fighting without rules and then everything goes out the window and anyone can be beaten by the simplest wrong move.

I definately would agree that BJJ is not the best art for taking on multiple attackers because you spend too much time on the ground tied up so in that factor it would be less effective than a striking art. Out of all the arts I have tried though I would say that for one on one fighting it is probably one of the best. I really like MT for a streetfighting situation where striking is an issue because it prepares you for the giving and taking of hits as well as how to protect yourself and what things work and what things don't.

[ryanhall]

Wutang,
I've never seen someone who claims to hold a BJJ purple belt speak so highly of traditional martial arts. Ever. Not that this is a bad thing in any way, but most BJJers are extremely proud of their style. Interesting. You are one of the most open-minded BJJers I've ever spoken with.

Secondly, I've never met any traditional martial arts master who could hold his own in a real fight. Master level anything doesn't matter much when you encounter the real deal. Simple, offensive, and brutal should describe what you're after. That does not take years upon years to master. Training in an unrealistic manner (that is personified by most Hapkido and Gung Fu schools) does not prepare you to take on multiple anything (except perhaps dinner courses). --I'm not bashing Hapkido as an art. There are probably people who train some of it in a sound manner.

The Hapkido instructor was an 8th dan with 20+ years experience and could honestly take on several opponents at once (several policemen can vouch for that).

Sorry. Can't buy that one. Nobody can take on several opponents and hope to win in a straight out fight. You can survive, sure. You can do damage and escape, sure. You can even win. But dealing with several opponents intent on killing you is not something that anyone, regardless of their skill level, has a decent chance of coming out of in one piece.

I don't think any BJJ guy can claim that.

Disclaimer: I'm not a BJJer or Muay Thai practitioner, so I'm not just defending this for the sake of defending it.

Response to your comment: Nobody sane can claim that.

But don't expect to beat true masters in any art with a blue belt. At least not in a real "no rules " fight.

I honestly have problems whenever someone says TRUE master. This implies that everyone who loses is not a 'true' master, and that the real flagholders of these ancient arts are off destroying multiple armed, younger, and more fit attackers on a daily basis.

In a no rules fight, all bets are off. The only thing that works consistently is hitting first, hard, and repeatedly until the threat or threats are eliminated. Unless masters of traditional martial arts train realistically to do this (I know they don't, as I've met and trained with 4 or 5), they won't be beating anyone in a no rules brawl. Attitude and viciousness mean more than anything else. Those attributes just accentuate skill.