TKD vs American Kickboxing

[bigred389]

I didn't exactly say that. I'm sure it varies. If you train boxing in your TKD training that is all good.
I'm just saying that if you don't train a lot of punching, you will not be good at it. And from what I know about TKD is that generally they focus a lot on kicks, and not punching. And that I can understand if they don't punch that much because of the sideway stance. I think it's good to be able to fight both from a sideway and from a more square stance.
Basically it comes down to what you train. I don't train clinch work and knees, so I would get owned by a muay thai fighter that knows it, no matter how good my boxing or kicks are. I would not be able to hold him of very long.
So if a TKD guy can box well, that is super. That just isn't my image of TKD, please correct me if I'm wrong...

That's fair enough, as it's true for most schools.

But fact is, anybody who's dissatisfied could easily just do what I and many other people do and take boxing and wrestling.

I personally was a hands down TKD fighter in my early days, but boxing with focus mitts quickly taught me how dumb that was. And wrestling taught me how easily a grappler who gets in can mess up a standup only fighter.

I admit I'd still like to train in MT for elbows, knees, and leg kicks.

And tkd what's with bringing my school into this?

[tkd_person89]

You go to Cornell? Smart man... keep up the good work. i intend on applying there. best of luck to you.

And to gabbah, I'll drop my heatedness here for a sec and explain some things out for you.

It is true, modern Taekwondo is lacking in terms of hand skill compared to boxing and such. But a Taekwondo guy will be a lot better at hand technique than your average, untrained meathead-at-a-bar. Yeah many TKD guys do crosstrain.

I'd have to disagree with your sideways stance. A proper instructor would never tell you to use hand techniques with a sideways stance. Good practitioners don't use completely sideways stance anyways. If you look at people like Steven Lopez, their stance is somewhat sideways, but a little bit open and not 90 degrees.

Criticizing the TKD stance is basically like criticizing almost any other traditional East Asian art for their stance...

It is damn clear boxers are better tahn TKD guys at punching. But TKD do not suck at it.

[eXcessiveForce]

Actually, I've had two student rated top ten in the nation. A few were state champs and I have fought several world champs and rated fighters.

I gave up point fighting long ago because it teaches bad habits. I gave up chasing rank a long time ago too. I don't care what rank someone is it's about skill not rank.

WTF is a bunch of old koreans that think they control TKD but they don't. Others have taken it and improved it. I find the songahm system superior to WTF. Although it also has issues it has atleast made an attempt to correct the flaws in TKD.

If you would like to see my quality, you may stop by my school if you are ever in st. louis. We are always happy to have visitors.

[Piston]

You people claim WTF sucks... First of all WTF isn't a style, it's an organization. Bashing WTF is bashing Taekwondo.

You claim WTF sucks but I guarantee if you don't go to a mcdojang, there will be a lot of WTF guys that will kick your sorry ass.

But WTF *is* a different style of TKD, it differs in philosiphy, governance and I think the forms are also different.

And also, since when does your opinion have any validity to it? Are you an internationally reknowned master or fighter? Have I seen your name in any martial arts magazine articles? Nope, I don't think I have. So unless you actually think somebody gives a damn about your crappy opinon, then I dont care about your crappy opinion.

I hope you realise the sheer irony of this statement.

I didn't exactly say that. I'm sure it varies. If you train boxing in your TKD training that is all good.
I'm just saying that if you don't train a lot of punching, you will not be good at it. And from what I know about TKD is that generally they focus a lot on kicks, and not punching. And that I can understand if they don't punch that much because of the sideway stance. I think it's good to be able to fight both from a sideway and from a more square stance.
Basically it comes down to what you train. I don't train clinch work and knees, so I would get owned by a muay thai fighter that knows it, no matter how good my boxing or kicks are. I would not be able to hold him of very long.
So if a TKD guy can box well, that is super. That just isn't my image of TKD, please correct me if I'm wrong...

Thats fairly true, but if you don't train in kicks much you won't be any good at them would ya?

The side stance has two advatages:

1.) Shows a lot less of your body thus giving your opponent a lot less options of attack.

2.) There is a much greater variation of kicks one is able to through out in succession, at speed, than given by a square stance.

I find that the punches I need can be thrown quite easily from a side stance, seeing as a TKD fighter is trying to keep his range as much as he can, but when someone gets in close, we can through out lots of quick punches designed not to do an awful lot of damage but rather to give us some kicking space. That said should anyone I'm sparring against drop their guard they can expect a quick lunge at their head.

[Piston]

Also excessive could you tell the me the differences that Songahm has, I'm intruiged.

[bigred389]

Also less likely to get hit in the NUTS with a side stance.

Dude if you make it here, I know you've posted like 5 diff TKD school search topics...the one here is pretty good.

Also, the boxing/MT guy here is also amazing.

But the academic life will suck. I'm in the midst of finals, the streets are icy, and the indoor track is closed so I'm about to go insane.

I've been under the impression that instead of using square/side stance exclusively, it's better to mix up the two somewhat.
For example, side stance is much better at a kicking distance, while as you CLOSE with your opponent, you begin to square your stance somewhat(about a 45 or 30 degree twist even). Then the boxing/elbow/knee techniques become easier to pull off, and you can also clinch/takedown easier.

Don't know, maybe it's just me.

[Piston]

Nah I know what you mean, it just happens naturally that your stance changes and becomes more square on, which is fine, you've just got to make sure you arent showin too much. A square stance gives a TKD practitioner a lot to go for.

[tkd_person89]

Lol excessive... you are freaking joke. A bunch of old Koreans, huh? Lol you think you can discriminate and display bigotry just because you're a big bad moderator, huh?

Lol... the sheer arrogance of people that think they know everythign about MA.... it really surprises and aggravates me

You sparred two people in the top ten? Please... don't lie. If you're going to lie, make it good. If not, provide us with some evidence.

WTF is just as good as any other style.

So basically: MY FRIEND, YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT FROM THE BJJ/MUAY THAI MEATHEADS THAT BASH OTHER STYLES AND HAVE NO RESPECT AT ALL FOR OTHER STYLES.

Hmm what a weird cycle... BJJ Meatheads diss TKD... This idiot disses a style of TKD... lololol

[tkd_person89]

Lol excessive..

And just so you know... it's not WTF Taekwondo that's considered the armpit of martial arts community these days but that ATA Taekwondo mcdojang stuff you are so proud of

don't like the truth? ban me

[IPON]

the sheer arrogance of people that think they know everythign about MA.... it really surprises and aggravates me

Interesting if not ironic that your level of arrogance to members that are your senior is also aggravating considering how much knowlege you have.

I will say it again I would only expect this type of question from a white/yellow belt noty someone who claims to have a BB.

[tkd_person89]

lol you are quite funny

[eXcessiveForce]

Kid, you need to learn to read, I trained two people in the top ten. I fought many more than that. Who cares though, I fought more people outside of TKD then inside. At the end of the day it doesn't mean a damn thing.


As for TKD, what is your frame of reference? I have trained both in WTF and ATA admittedly only worked with a few ITF guys so I can really say a lot about their style. I am also familiar with a few other smaller TKD groups but have not trained in them. So how long have you trained in the WTF? How long in the ATA? How long in MT? How long in BJJ? What are your credentials?

People have issues with the way ata school are fun, I can respect that, so do I. I prefer the system though. As a system it is more complete.

"old koreans" by the way is a quote from H.U. Lee founder of the ATA a korean. Some of my relatives are Korean so before you run your mouth maybe you should expand your knowledge base.

I don't care if you disagree with me or believe anything. I've been teaching as long as you've been alive, your opinion of me matters little. None of that will get you ban though. What will get you ban is foul language and personal attacks against respected members of the forum.

[blitz]

Lol excessive... you are freaking joke. A bunch of old Koreans, huh? Lol you think you can discriminate and display bigotry just because you're a big bad moderator, huh?

Lol... the sheer arrogance of people that think they know everythign about MA.... it really surprises and aggravates me

.. Seriously dude you have to grow up, you are acting like a 10 year old and on top of that you have no idea what your talking about, your insecure about everything your doing, look at how many threads you make about tkd, asking questions about things a black belt should know and especially one that ISN'T training at a "mcdojang", I hardly have very limited experience about martial arts and I'm not that insecure. Stop making bad threads, stop shittalking people who are obviously better than you in martial arts and are more mature than you. If you are that good at TKD and if you have the information you keep arguing about why the hell do you keep making these worthless threads. Btw don't post the Muay thai in NJ thread 3 times.

All you do is talk shit and and argue about something you asked about, don't ask about a point of view if your going to attack it. If your going to make a thread, even if its as silly as this one, at least respect peoples opinions. I hope I talked some sense into you. But then again your probably gonna say I'm a freaking joke or a moron.

[eXcessiveForce]

Sure piston.
Difference with Songahm,

It includes more versitility in kicking. We actually catagorize kicks, based on leg kicking and type of movement.

Understanding and utiliztion of both fluid shockwave and Impulse shockwave in striking.

There is a ground fighting segment. Long ago there was a deal with the gracies to combine their system with the ATA. This fell through but ground work was added.

Joint manipulation and Pressure point control tactics from Bruce Siddles stuff was added back in the 80's.

The forms are more complex and contain more kicking that WTF or ITF forms and at a much earlier rank.

The system offers both point sparring and olympic sparring. Point can be earned for punching and always have been.

Point system encourages more difficult techinques. 1 point punch, 1 point Kick to the body, 2 points jump kick to the body or kick to the head, 3 points jump kick to the head.

Weapons work, stick and knife seem influences by Kali, Nunchucks, trisectional staff (on weapons I like or care to train in but they are available) sword and bo staff

First songahm form has 18 moves. 1st degree form has 81 moves. So much more material is contained in the forms

Board breaking requirements are much harder. Black belts much break 2 boards per station unspaced. (rebrakeable boards are now being used with approx equivalent of 3 boards)

Instructorship and mastership are based on things outside of rank. Mastership is not attained until 6th degree and then other requirements must be met.

Instructorship must be trained for and tested for, you don't just become an instructor.

You cannot attain a rank higher than 3rd degree without being an instructor.

Recently ATA has contracted with Krav Maga to offer their material as ATA combat systems.

there are a few programs that are ill concieved but they are available for those that want them, such as XMA.

They have a closed tournament circuit. As they are the largest unified martial arts group in the world at the moment their tournaments are open only to ATA members. This increases fairness as all judges know the material the competitors are using and the sportsmanship is generally much higher than open tournaments.

ATA people can also attend open tournaments so they can experience both.

The exteme growth of Songahm TKD has cause problems such as how do you train 1000 students in a school. New methods of teaching where used, but proved to be inefficient. They are in the process of correcting this as there was a quality drop. Luckily I decided to keep teaching the same was I was taught when I started in 1984.

In the last few years their have been lots of changes not all good. This occurred shortly after the death of H.U.lee the founder. I am hopefull that they will slowly phase out some of those changes and go back to the way things were.

Hope that helps

[tkd_person89]

So maybe I misunderstood Excessive so I'll ask again. Do you think WTF sucks?

If you do, here's my un-foul mouthed response to that. First of all, do you think you'd be able to beat an Olympic medalist in a standup fight? Secondly, even olympic guys train the hand strikes of taekwondo. You say WTF keeps their hands down. I don't. My instructor doesn't. Neither does anyone in my dojang. In fact, no one I know who does WTF keeps their hands down. Hands down is for competition. No WTF instructor in his right mind would allow that for a real encounter.