The Tae Kwon Do Thread... Your thoughts.

[Great Sage]

Okay, everyone... Let’s touch base on Tae Kwon Do. I’ve emailed a letter to the WTF and TKD Magazine regarding the ineffective techniques of TKD. Basically, I’m curious as to how they feel about the current status of their art, since many martial artitsts today frown upon TKD as a viable combat art. I’ll keep you updated.

For now, let’s look at why this popular art is so unpopular in the martial arts community. When karate and the martial arts first entered the United States, Asian arts were highly revered. Basically, people were unfamiliar with TKD or karate and developed phobias regarding kicking and blocking techniques. However, as times changed and people became more familiar with the realities of combat, TKD genre styles have become more sport than combat.

So, basically TKD has been developing into a sport rather than a martial art. Given the era we live in, it’s not surprising. We’re no longer in times of raiding bandits, outlaws or warlords. Had TKD been developing in a country that was constantly fighting, perhaps the outcome may have been different.

However, the fact that other arts have developed in terms of effective fighting strategies says that TKD doesn’t really care about combat anymore. Therefore, TKD would do well to regard itself as a sport and not a martial art. Like boxing, it would retain it’s integrity, yet have some level of effective fighting strategy. Although, boxing is far more technical and economical.

But the fact that TKD still advertises itself as a complete martial art is very misleading. TKD technqiues are useful in a middle school scuffle, but beyond that, it’s a commodity at best. Ofcourse, any technique, if drilled enough, can be made to work... But, for the average individual, high kicks and fancy techniques are not ideal street techniques.

Salvageable TKD techniques include: Side kick (with less chamber), quick footwork (not including longswitches) and front kick (groin kick).

Less effective techniques make up the bulk of TKD: Rounhouse Kick, crescent kicks, spinning kicks, jumping kicks, flying kicks, tornado kick, hopping kicks, including variations, etc...

In all my years training in TKD, there was never any training in striking with the hands, other than a reverse punch. Therefore, TKD really needs to address this problem.

Please share your thoughts and experiences in a constructive manner.

Sincerely,
Great Sage

[eXcessiveForce]

Great Sage, I wonder what the heck you were learning in all your years of TKD practise. It seems you do not understand many facets of TKD.

Effective techniques that you obviously have not learned to execute properly.

Roundhouse (round) kick. I have knocked out many people with this kick.
Crescent kick, I have knocked out many people with this kick as well.

Skip kicks Knocked down many people great for covering distance.

Jump kicks actually increases balance because there is no reliance on stability of the base leg. Good to counter act low kicks if done properly but the focus switches to landing. Tried it out against muay thai recently and it worked very well. Has it's time and place.

We always worked boxing style hand work along with many back fists, elbows and palm strikes. So I can't go along with you on the hand work. Since i was little I was told to work hands and legs evenly.

My experience with TKD has been vastly different than yours. Now I see the organization that I have trained with for many years becoming to comericalized and the quality of instruction dropping with every batch of new instructors. It is not hard to find instructors that know what the techniques are really for or how to use the properly. That is why I will soon be taking my school out of the organization and redesigning our system to incorporate the things I have always taught so that it will continue on. It will also be drawing on the experience of some other people with training outside of TKD.

My suggestion is go back and try to figure out how you could use the TKD you were taught, try to learn why things were done and you might find uses that you or your instructors never considered.

Also realize that I gave up on the WTF and ITF a long time ago. They care very little about combat. But the art of Taekwondo is Bigger than the WTF and the ITF.

[tkdkid]

I also practiced TaeKwonDo for a long time. i like it, I just take the kicking part and mix it with my wrestling and boxing training. i did taekwondo in Korea, where there's only two belt system, black and white. You have to be really skilled to go on to black belt...and trust me, don't believe the mcdojos here, because taekwondo in Korea can be really effective. The timing and tricking ur opponent with quick footwork can be devastating. However I agree with you, it needs more training with hands, it needs some muay thai in it.

[Tom Yum]

IMO I think the axe kick and turning side/back kick are also salvagable.

TKD is a sport and is practiced full contact - so it has its niche. Its not as effective in the niche of NHB or MMA fighting, wheras other arts are more combat oriented.

Because of the way its used in sport, the fighter is placed off balance. Have you seen the muay thai vs. tkd video? They are fighting with no punches to the head, but the thai guy levels the TKD guy with a left hook to the body, not to mention that kick to his supporting leg, his body and head. At one point, the TKD guy counters a thai kick with a turning side kick (classical TKD) but the turning side kick gets jammed by the thai boxers push kick.

TKD kicks are chambered and snapped. This serves the purpose in the sport arena to guarantee fast point scoring and continuos action (not all the time). TKD kicking is extremely fast and hard, but lacks the power of thai kicks. The reason being is that the thai kick is thrown with one's weight behind it and travelling in the same direction of the kick - TKD kicks are thrown leaning back, rotating the planted foot and snapping the kick.

Also if your shins are conditioned strongly enough, you can kick a persons kick and end a fight. If you're a 120lb guy from thailand with no nerves in your lead-pipe shins and have an extremely fast kick, you could cripple the legs of a much larger fighter without any contact based conditioning.

TKD doesn't address punching as much, except for the ridge hand and reverse punch. To make up for this, some TKD practicioners take up boxing.

The TKD guys that start to train in MT usually get good pretty quickly once they learn the kicks.

My experience with Korean MAs is that the higher ranked, the more political it is. Seems like you have to be a 5th dan to really get the attention of the orgs - Good Luck with your letter.

[Tom Yum]

Originally posted by tkdkid
I also practiced TaeKwonDo for a long time. i like it, I just take the kicking part and mix it with my wrestling and boxing training. i did taekwondo in Korea, where there's only two belt system, black and white. You have to be really skilled to go on to black belt...and trust me, don't believe the mcdojos here, because taekwondo in Korea can be really effective. The timing and tricking ur opponent with quick footwork can be devastating. However I agree with you, it needs more training with hands, it needs some muay thai in it.

I would really like to see the Korean TKD BBs compete in NHB. I agree that there are tons of Mc Dojangs here, but the Koreans are for real yet hesitate to compete outside of TKD.

TKD kicking is done extremely quickly with agility, but the Koreans seem to be better at keeping distance and timing, no?

[Great Sage]

eXcessiveForce,

I started TKD when I was very young. Basically, I was fed all the propaganda of fancy kicks and techniques associated with TKD. In my first middle school fight, I landed a muffled roundhouse kick as my opponent closed the gap and proceeded to pound me into the ground. Needless to say, at age 14, I quit TKD to pursue other arts, e.g. submissions, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai from friends, videos and gyms.

In high school, I got into a fight with our wrestling captain, and while I didn’t win, my knowledge of submissions and body positioning saved me. Since then, I can remember only two situations where I used a high kick effectively, but if I had a second chance, I wouldn’t do it again. I now realize how much more effective low kicks are...

I do not doubt that you may have knocked someone down with a roundhouse kick, or a crescent kick, but for the most part, those kicks can be easily read by even the most untrained person. The reason being natural reflexes and the position of a person’s arms during a fight.

A crescent kick, 9.9 out of 10 times will not do much damage. It simply lacks power and you really have to get it up high, which is not economically sound because you’re off balance and your leg will usually get caught on the shoulders.

The same is also true of TKD roundhouse kicks. The higher they are, the less power generated, unless you somehow manage to hit a vital spot on the head. But for the most part, it can be easily deflected or avoided. Against a grappler, it would be a grave mistake.

Skipping kicks, or hopping kicks don’t fare much better. I got my foot caught this way and I’ve also noticed this is a recurring incident in various sparring sessions. The worst scenerio is simply skipping into a a stop hit. Frankly, I’ve never been a fan of moving forward while on one foot as I’ve seen many TKD guys do. I’m also not sold on the idea that a skip kick can knock anyone down unless they were already off balance. Even with a Thai Push Kick, that would be unlikely, unless the person was in the midst of their movement.

My experience in TKD, however different from yours, reflects a large percentage of TKD dojans. I don’t possess a lack of TKD knowledge, rather it’s a lack of proficient techniques on behalf of TKD. Near the end of my college days, I got involved in TKD again to prepare for Kickboxing (no kicking above the belt). I didn’t receive my Black Belt because of a falling out with my instrutor (posted in another forum). And even then, the techniques were lacking.

Therefore, I’ve done what you suggested – kept the salvageable techniques. I do believe that with more emphasis on effective fighting strategies TKD can become a better art, but there are no innovative TKD men willing to do this. The art of TKD will be nothing but a sport, if it fails to live up to evolution.

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Tom Yum
I would really like to see the Korean TKD BBs compete in NHB. I agree that there are tons of Mc Dojangs here, but the Koreans are for real yet hesitate to compete outside of TKD.

TKD kicking is done extremely quickly with agility, but the Koreans seem to be better at keeping distance and timing, no?

Tom,

This will never happen because Korean BB's are not confident enough to compete outside the circle of TKD type matches (Although a few have been in MT and Sanshou). And rightfully so, all the fancy footwork and timing in the world will not dissuade the inevitably – being taken down. That's the last place a TKD guy wants to be.

Consider that boxers and Muay Thai guys have competed lost due to submissions. These guys are trained in proper footwork, but the inevitable truth is that you always run out of room if you cannot generate a offense against a MMArtist.

[Tom Yum]

True, but most boxers and MT guys dabble in jiu jitsu or pankration and makes them more formidable on the ground.

Mo Smith survived the ground and pound of Mark Coleman. In the final rounds, Coleman was sucking wind, dropped his hands and ate a rear thai kick from Mo that sent Coleman crashing.

[tkdkid]

Well...some dojangs in Korea are like mcdojos here...but I trained in three different dojangs in Korea then on ein U.S....Korean TaeKwonDo Dojangs have much harder training routines than the ones here. There's this guy I know who did TaeKwonDo in Korea, he's a black belt in it. I saw him in a street fight, and he beat the shit out of two bigger guys who went after him, one guy behind him got a roundhouse kick to his stomach and the guy in the front got a front kick to the groin and they went down. I played around with him few times the power in his kicks and speed of his kicks are tremendous. I was telling him how Taekwondo is considered ineffective in real street fights and he told me to try to punch him, so I went for right hook in full speed, and he actually blocked me with the taekwondo block..you knwo the one where you put your arm over ur head, and he reversed it into some kind of throw.
He told me thatr he learnt a lot of throws and punches also from his taekwondo dojang, and how there are many ppl who are stronger than him. So I'm pretty impressed with TaeKwonDo practiciners from Korea. There's abetter martial art in Korea though, the original TaeKwon, the one that TaeKwonDo is based on. I swear to God, when I was in Korea, I was watching the news abotu how a master of TaeKwon(not TaeKwonDo) was now going to for the first time teach it to ppl, and for demonstartion, I swear from sitting position, he jumped at least 6 feets int he air, while doing three kicks. That's the shit I wanna learn...lol.
But I think if you mix TaeKwonDo with little but of muay thai and jujitsu you can fair pretty well in NHB.

[eXcessiveForce]

This is my experience over over 20 years of martial arts training not just TKD but TKD is my core.

You miss read my post. I did not knock down I knocked unconsious people with TKD round kicks, Side kicks (to the head), and crecent kicks. I have disabled a fighter with an axe kick as well. People do not fight well when unconsious.


I have seen round kicks shatter the bone in the cheek and temple into 16 pieces requiring emergency surgury and nearly being a fatal blow. I have seen a round kick shatter a fighters jaw. I have seen broken ribs and concussions many times.

I saw a spin hook knock out a fighter (and have done so myself) but the fighter hit and had no pulse and was not breathing and had to be resusitated.

I have seen the heart stopped by a side kick to the chest.


These are things I have personally seen or done. These were done by average people, not 250lbs+ pro NHB fighters.


I believe you may not have as much knowledge of the art as you think I'm not criticizing you, I have found many masters I have spoken to lacking in basic knowledge of the hows and whys. Something that has always bothered me.

As for grappling, I love grapplers. I am comfortable on the ground and many of them do fail in sparring to effectively take people down. The good thing is I don't care if I go to the ground or not. Better to be standing but i like the ground fine.

It is not the system of TKD is what I'm saying. It is the poor quality of instruction and the lack of knowledge at high levels of basics.

I remember reading Tao of Jeet Kun do when I was younger and thinking it was total crap and one of my instructors agreed with me. Then one day while I was sparring I had an AH HA moment and I realized what he was trying to say. It was info I already knew I just didn't understand his way of describing it. It lead me to study TKD further and I have had many instructors ask me How I learned so much. I can only tell them to think critically about everything that they were taught and find out how to use it. There are only a few techniques that I'm still baffled by but maybe one day i'll figure those out too.

good luck on your training.

[Great Sage]

eXcessiveForce,

Well, I don't really see your point about the "hows" and "whys..." Simply because no matter how you do a roundhouse kick to the head, a submarine kick, or a simple shoot will take you down.

As I've said before, I don't doubt that you can fracture someone with axe kicks, roundhouse kicks, or what not, but the percentage of landing those kicks are not as good... You would fare better to coordinate hands or low kicks. Against another skilled fighter, such high kicks will usually end in disaster.

Imagine a teenager performing spin kicks on a bigger attacker while the attacker is rushing in. The kick will simply become muffled while the teenager is torn apart. That wouldn't be the best technique, is what I'm saying. Yet, dojangs teach that stuff. The amount of training to pull that off is not worth it, compared to what you can do with a clinch strategy, or mobility, etc...

One can never have enough knowledge of anything and I don't claim any more knowledge than the next guy... I just know the difference between the ring, the streets and the dojang. And therefore, I must refute you... It is the system, because the system teaches static postures that are unrealistic in combat. The system stress high-risk manuevers such as Jumping spin outside crescent kicks. Now, if someone were to train in just TKD and hit the streets, they would have a hard time defending themself.

If people were so absolutely convinced about TKD, they wouldn't need to cross train. But as you can atttest, many have gone on to Muay Thai for more power, BJJ for ground skills, etc... Which is not a bad thing, but the core issue is that TKD is lacking in realistic approach to combat.

[tkdkid]

that all depends on how you view realistic combat as. A straight punch still hurts, just because you consider it unrealistic doesn;t mean it's not going to work. Even a front snap kick hurts with boots on...NHB is not realistic fight, you don't take into consideration the clothes and etc. Realistically, I think judo with little boxing would be the shit cause if ur head hits the cement ground with a judo throw, it's bound to be devastating.
Anyways, TaekwonDo isn't unrealistic, don't judge all practiciners or masters of the art based on few ppl trained by ppl who are only interested in making money off of the art and not progress it. ITF and WTF are both not that good. If you wanna learn real taekwondo, find the one without all those medals and trophies on their shelf. But I'd rather stick with boxing or mau thai since there's not that many good TKD dojangs in U.S.

[brokenelbow]

Had TKD been developing in a country that was constantly fighting, perhaps the outcome may have been different.

Now that's funny Great Sage.

Basically, I’m curious as to how they feel about the current status of their art, since many martial artitsts today frown upon TKD as a viable combat art.

I'd guess they're happy with it. They, the WTF, have achieved many of the goals they aimed for the main two being to have it reach world wide popularity as a sport and have it become an Olympic event.

So, basically TKD has been developing into a sport rather than a martial art.

It wasn't accidental Great Sage, it was a decision by the WTF for it to be a sport.

Which is not a bad thing, but the core issue is that TKD is lacking in realistic approach to combat.

True, but that can be said about every art and most schools, including JKD, kali, karate, boxing, and any other we could name.

I think you're looking for WTF TKD to be something that it is not. The WTF is not out to make a comprehensive art but a sport.

[blade_cs]

Hey guys,


I found a TKD place with techniques that are more practical than most other TKD places that just do high kicks. Here's the link to the video clip gallary. http://www.wustaekwondo.com/demo/demo-video.htm.

Most TKD dojangs don't have a lot of self defense, but this one does. It's sorta like Hapkido.

Well, check it out and tell me what you think.

blade_cs

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

I have been to Korea & own 2 3rd Dan Black Belts in TKD. I think it depends a whole lot on your Instructor. Some TKD schools teach crap, some teach boxing in class, realistic kicks ect. I don't think it's any match for Muay Thai but you can get good self-defense from it if you train at a good school. Point sparring is crap.