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Wrestling in MMA: an attribute or a fundamental?

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  • Wrestling in MMA: an attribute or a fundamental?

    As many of you already know, the purpose of the early ufc’s was to find out which martial art would reign supreme among all the others. It wasn’t long before the legendary Royce Gracie proved without question that gjj or bjj was the single most dominant style of all. With time, other styles like boxing, kickboxing, and later wrestling, also proved effective and were incorporated to form the modern hybrid mma style. Although the striking arts were the first to be embraced for their effectiveness by traditional martial artists, there was a doubt towards viewing wrestling as an effective martial art. The irony lied in the belief that it lacked overall finishing skills. It wasn’t until a mediocre wrestler by the name of Dan Severn came around, that demonstrated what wrestling has now proven to be, THE fundamental of mma fighting. In the end it’s not going to be about striking or submission skills, it’s going to come down to how well you can wrestle and control your opponent. The fighters that are going to have the greatest potential be successful are going to be the ones with the best wrestling background.
    We have already begun to see this, and it’s only going to get more common. Here’s why? This type of combat is tailor made for wrestlers for 2 main reasons. A clinch in a fight is inevitable, and controlling your opponent is the basis towards providing the most efficient use of a fighter’s strikes and submissions. Sooner or later both fighters will find themselves in a clinch, and when they do the fighter who can control the other will usually have the upper hand. Submissions and striking skills will be secondary. Ken Shamrock might know many more submission techniques than Randy Couture, but if they fought, who do you think would end up executing the finishing moves? This is the main reason why Couture and Matt Hughes have been, and are going to be so difficult to beat. They have taken out the best strikers and submission artists out there because they posses the most dominant fighting style in mma.
    It comes down to 3 principles that work in order: 1.Control, 2.Position, 3.Execution. Nobody does this better than the guys I mentioned. If you look at almost every Randy Couture fight, you’ll notice that he follows these steps religiously. Some fighters don’t follow this, while others jump from one principle to another too soon, or even disregard one at all. It’s like this; you’ll only get the most out of your execution if you first establish a strong position. Furthermore, you’ll only get the most out of your position when you have soundly controlled your opponent. So then the question remains, what is the best way to control your opponent in a mma setting? That’s right, wrestling. Part of this is why Tito lost. Although Tito is a great striker and good with submissions, his bread and butter is, and will always be his wrestling background. It has been the “backbone” to his great striking and submission skills. I believe that is the way it out to be, it’s just that Tito lost the control battle. He tried to out-wrestle a superior wrestler and never managed to sustain a dominant position to execute. He would have stood a better chance using his wrestling ability to remain upright and strike.
    Strikes and submissions obviously work, but the key lies in getting the most out of them to be successful. They are great, butcanuwrestle?


  • #2
    Ok then.

    Comment


    • #3
      Um, I hate to break this to you Butcanyouwrestle... 'wrestlers' aren't the only people to emphasis control before submission; B.J.J. and (I'm sure) every other grappling art teaches control of an opponent first and finishing second. It goes without saying that you can't finish without control.

      Furthermore, 'wrestling' uses no submission techniques at all, so controlling an opponent isn't going to do you any good - if a 'wrestler uses a submission, he is no longer purely wrestling, he is now involved in the hybrid art of submission grappling.

      This is just another "My art is better than your art, bow down to me" thread and as usual, the argument for superiority is flawed in more waysd than I can bother to argue.

      I suggest 'Butcanyouwrestle' that you walk yourself down to the nearest B.J.J. academy, and join in a few classes. Then come back here and lavish us with knowledge.





      Oh, and welcome to the forum.

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      • #4
        Royce beat Severn.

        Hi!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Sean Dempsey
          Royce beat Severn.

          Hi!
          WHOOOO! WHOOOO!!! WHOOOOOOOOOOOO!


          Sorry...

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          • #6
            I agree with Greg and sean. A wrestling background is invaluable in MMA competition but wrestling by itself will leave you handicaped. Sure in freestyle and greco roman we learn "illegal" techniques certain locks and throws but the finishing moves are not there like JJJ, BJJ, jjudo, san chao etc. Combat wreslting incorporates these techniques but it really is not the same (actually, it more like judo without the Gi). A wreslter going into BJJ or Judo will definately have an advantage in trainig becuase of there foundation. You can't really claim wretsling as the main style eventhough it may be the foundation for alot of the fighters. The wrestlers that have survived in MMA and were competitive did cross train in JJ and boxing to compensate, just as some BJJ stylists have compensated by adding MT or Boxing. If they did not cross train they would have tapped. Dan Severn boxed prior to teh UFC and stated after that he felt handicapped becuse the matches could have ended quicker if he knew finishing moves......but hey, takedown mount and beat your face in has been a valid technique since grade school

            So long story short:

            Would a wrestler beat a Boxer: Yes if the wrestler is fast enough to duck under the jab or hook. if not KO

            Would a pure wreslter beat a pure BJJ or judo stylist (pure meaning not cross training): The wrestler would probably beat them to the takedown, get in the guard, then get choked or locked by teh BJJ or Judo stylist.

            And I am pro wrestlers....but I am more concerned with being Pro-Realistic

            Just my 2.5 cents

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            • #7
              To gregimotis and Dempsey.

              G-man,
              I think you need to pay more att. to what I said. First of all, I never said that wrestlers were the only athletes to emphasize control before execution, I only stated that in mma combat they have proven to be the best at it. Secondly, I agree that it goes without saying that you can't finish whithout control. However, at a WORLD CLASS mma level where athletes can afford to make less mistakes, I can assure you that controling your opponent IS more crucial to the success of a fighter.

              "Furthermore, 'wrestling' uses no submission techniques at all, so controlling an opponent isn't going to do you any good if a 'wrestler uses a submission, he is no longer purely wrestling, he is now involved in the hybrid art of submission grappling." I agree, but you missed my point. I was placing emphasis on the importance of a strong wrestling background as THE fundamental basis to build from for the optimal mma style.

              My argument is not flawd, history has shown it, and time will prove it. You just don't understand the true chemistry of the sport and you don't seem to have a clue of where it's headed.

              Oh and by the way, I am well trained in bjj.

              Dempsey,
              Royce did beat Severn, but only because that was a classic example of how pure bjj will beat any other pure single style out there, including wrestling. I mentioned that. The question is which is better to build from when striving to build an optimal mma style? I mean, Couture and Hughes hardly even ever attempt submissions, much less use them. They also don't need to hit as hard as Mike Tyson to beat you. They are just happy with being all over your ass the whole fight (controlling), while depriving their opponents the opportunity to gain control, position and execution. True they might get caught in a submission, but it's rare. If Carlos Newton (a guy with world class submissions) fought Hughes 10 times. I GUARANTEE you, that Hughes will win the majority of the time.


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              • #8
                I love this

                Fellas, Fellas

                Of course pure wrestling is not enough for mma competition. It's obvious. I've already stated that. Again, the irony lies in that pure wrestling, while lacking finishing moves, offers what has proved to be the most important element in a mma fight, control. NOBODY does this better than wrestling. It's just the truth.

                Every mmartist has had to cross train to survive in this game, that's a given. The question is, which background benefits an athlete more when crosstraining?The question is, which background benefits an athlete more when crosstraining? That is what I'm talking about. Which martial art background will produce the more dominant fighting style after adopting another. Will it be the the world class bjj artist who's aquired wrestling skills to his style, or would it be the world class wrestler who's aquired bjj skills? I believe, well what recent history has proven. That those with a strong wrestling background have had the most success after crosstraining.

                I mean do you honestly think that there is a mmartist right now with excellent submission skills that can CONSISTENTLY beat Couture or Hughes in their weight? They have already tried. I REST MY CASE!

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                • #9
                  new guy here

                  I've watched every ufc out there and you make some valid points. Let me ask you, do you think that an athlete that is new to mma should learn how to become a great wrestler first, and then branch off into submissions and strikes?

                  I mean I honestly feel that Frank Shamrock is among the best in history, and he didn't come from a world class wrestling background? Give me your thoughts on that bro.

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                  • #10
                    vandamfan,

                    Not neccessarily. I feel that the best training strategy for mma competition would be to simultanously train in the three main categories that have proven to work best; boxing, wrestling, bjj, and kickboxing. However, an athlete should place more emphasis on wrestling in the beggining in order to develop the neccessary "controlling" skills to excell in the sport.

                    True, even though Frank didn't come from a world class background, I too feel that he is one of the best in history. However, as good as he was or is, his style was not as dominant as that of a Couture or Hughes of today. Frank was a very dominant champion, because he excelled in almost every department except one, Wrestlng. Even though he beat Jeremy Horn and Tito Ortiz, he showed this limitation. He had trouble controlling them and establishing a dominant position on the ground. He beat Tito because Tito frankly just got tired, if not Tito would of won the decision. With Horn, he basicaly won by submission while being outpositioned for most of the fight by a mediocre fighter. If Jeremy Horn, and the Tito from then could control and outposition Frank, just imagine what Mat Hughes would do; a phenomenal wrestler with great striking skills who keeps his opponents in tight whithout giving them an inch for a successful submission.

                    You have to understand that submissions have become very predictable, and will continue to do so? Everybody knows about the armbar, triangle, kneebar etc. The trick to a successful submision will lie more and more on the timing of the submission. Naturally, the more the sport and the better the fighters get, the more crucial timing will become when attempting to apply a
                    successful submission. Hughes understands the submission techniques that are out there, and the type of leverage they require in order to work. He has mastered the art of avoiding them, while positioning himself to pound away when the time is right. Believe me, this is the way the sport is developing. You'll see.

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                    • #11
                      You may be right on the money. Lately the fighters with good ground control have beaten the best submission guys out there. Nugeria (sp), Newton. We're gona have to wait and see if it's gonna keep going on. Anyhow, I still think Frank Shamrock is the bomb. Great post by the way, later

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                      • #12
                        butcanuwrestle? Ok I think we are saying the same thing and like I said I agree that the foundation of wrestling is critical. And yes, at least for the UFC it has been evolving for the last 6-7years that the matches are less about styles and more in combat ground fighting. That is actually why I stopped watching the matches becuase it was getting preidictable and uninteresting. I just started watching MMAs again in the last few months, I am still debating if I am interested.

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                        • #13
                          Just an aside here folks but.....there were submissions in wrestling before Gracie jiu-jitsu even existed. That was in the days prior to the establishment of amatuer wrestling as a scholastic sport. That was American catchascatchcan. Let's not forget this. Amatuer wrestling simply dropped what was considered too dangerous for scholastic competition.

                          I'm not taking anything away from the Gracie's as BJJ is a huge part of what our curriculum is. I just think that people should be aware of what the history behind submission in wrestling is.

                          John

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                          • #14
                            Ipon

                            I tend to agree with you on the diminishing fun factor in recent mma matches. Although I enjoy and admire the mma wrestler's dominance over the sport, some matches can become boring. I would be lying if I told you that at times I find the old school ufc's more entertaining. Nevertheless, I like where it's headed.

                            Sticksnstones

                            That is right. Wrestling is the oldest sport in the world. During it's inception, it was called pankration. Anything pretty much went.

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                            • #15
                              ...

                              Haven't Gracies been knocked out by strike-oriented fighters before?

                              Later...

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