Going to the H.S. Wrestling Tryouts....

[IPON]

[QUOTE=jubaji]

Good plan, have a strong standup and grab the fingers not the wrist, rationale you have the finger can't lock hands.

QUOTE]No, no, no. Wrist control is what you need. If you grab for fingers you will not secure good control.

For stand up and escape it is better to control the hands than the wrists. If you stay on the mat I agree. I have used this many times for standup exscapes the person can't lock up. Now if the arte just cock strong they probably will still be able to hold on. But again, I am just saying stand uo escape

[IPON]

Ok, but you are not very likely to "knock over" your opponent with a sit-out unless you are wrestling the scarecrow.

Agreed, especially in the lower weights they are faster. But you can catch people with a strong sitback not "sit out" and turn in. I may be saying this incorrectly, but I mean sit back, on bottom and literally push back at teh whistle vs. a sit-out where you would normally do a switch. Tell me if this makes no sense I think I am not confusing the termininology but I may be, but the concept is correct.

[jubaji]

For stand up and escape it is better to control the hands than the wrists. I am just saying stand uo escape

I most strongly disagree.

[jubaji]

Agreed, especially in the lower weights they are faster. But you can catch people with a strong sitback not "sit out" and turn in. I may be saying this incorrectly, but I mean sit back, on bottom and literally push back at teh whistle vs. a sit-out where you would normally do a switch. Tell me if this makes no sense I think I am not confusing the termininology but I may be, but the concept is correct.

This will be effective if you are much stronger and/or heavier than your opponent. If you try to sit back too much, you will be walking into a suck-back (underhook and chin).

Make space and get the hell out.

[IPON]

I most strongly disagree.

No problem we can agree to disagree. But tell why you have a problem with this. I have used this very successfully in h.s. and college. On the bottom, the point is nearly to escape, not reverse their are othr techniques for that (eg sitbacks and sitouts). So your opponent has a hand on the elbow other hand on the stomach. You stand and grab the hand on the belly and prevent the lock when the other hand comes around for the lock up. Now you are grabbing both hands turn in face your opponent - escape. The problem with the wrists is that you do not prevent the hand locking. Now on the mat that is different you have to control the wrists in either position.

[IPON]

This will be effective if you are much stronger and/or heavier than your opponent. If you try to sit back too much, you will be walking into a suck-back (underhook and chin).

Make space and get the hell out.

Hmm, yeah basically I agree, but I was generally lighter than the people I wrestled by about 10lbs, but I was also generally stronger. Yeah, I used that alot we called it a crab ride. I definately agree, with the last part, I am just giving BJJ some options so he can stop looking in the jujitsu book

btw - am I saying sitback correctly or is it called something else?

[jubaji]

For stand up and escape it is better to control the hands than the wrists.

You need control on a standup. You will not have good control with the fingers. Wrist control is basic knowledge.

[jubaji]

am I saying sitback correctly or is it called something else?

That's right on

[jubaji]

No problem we can agree to disagree. But tell why you have a problem with this. I have used this very successfully in h.s. and college. On the bottom, the point is nearly to escape, not reverse their are othr techniques for that (eg sitbacks and sitouts). So your opponent has a hand on the elbow other hand on the stomach. You stand and grab the hand on the belly and prevent the lock when the other hand comes around for the lock up. The problem with the wrists is that you do not prevent the hand locking. Now on the mat that is different you have to control the wrists in either position.

The biggest danger in standing up is not the opponent locking his own wrists, but his getting a cross wrist on you. If you stand up and he has his own hands locked, you can work a number of escapes and reversals. If you stand up and he gets a cross wrist---you are going back down. If you get to your feet and have wrist control, at least one side is open for your escape.

[IPON]

The biggest danger in standing up is not the opponent locking his own wrists, but his getting a cross wrist on you. If you stand up and he has his own hands locked, you can work a number of escapes and reversals. If you stand up and he gets a cross wrist---you are going back down. If you get to your feet and have wrist control, at least one side is open for your escape.

Just to clarify not locking his wrists just his hands. Actually, I forgot about the cross wrist-good point, but controlling the hands prevents this as well. When I say control hands you are firmly griping (almost trying to break the fingers), standup strectch arms and turn in 2-3secs. Now this is purely for escape. Yes you can standup and cradle or trip etc. I agree wrist contro is basic and what I am sying is a little beyond basic, wrist control is what I first learned, and then I was taught hand control and it is world s more effective for standup escape and the prevention of locking hands or wrist. But its like anything it takes practice. Like I said it worked for me equally well in hs and college. The reality is that some cats grab the belly so tight it like they bring your obliques to your midsection. It also depends on your stand up, it will not work with a half-assed standup.

Anyway, its cool we can agree to disagree.

Damn...I want to find a wrestling tournament, I would probabley gas but who cares

[jubaji]

Just to clarify not locking his wrists just his hands. Actually, I forgot about the cross wrist-good point, but controlling the hands prevents this as well. When I say control hands you are firmly griping (almost trying to break the fingers), standup strectch arms and turn in 2-3secs. Now this is purely for escape. Yes you can standup and cradle or trip etc. I agree wrist contro is basic and what I am sying is a little beyond basic, wrist control is what I first learned, and then I was taught hand control and it is world s more effective for standup escape and the prevention of locking hands or wrist. But its like anything it takes practice. Like I said it worked for me equally well in hs and college. The reality is that some cats grab the belly so tight it like they bring your obliques to your midsection. It also depends on your stand up, it will not work with a half-assed standup.

Anyway, its cool we can agree to disagree.

I agree on agreeing to disagree in an agreeable manner.

However, I must add a few more kicks to this rapidly dying horse. By basic I mean basic knowledge. Its not 'advanced' to grab the fingers, its asking for trouble because it is less secure. You are simply not going to have as much control with the fingers as with the wrist. Your experience notwithstanding, this is pretty roundly agreed upon in the community.

Why do handcuffs go around the wrist and not the hand?

Finally, I agree that anything done less than full ass is not gonna work.

[jubaji]

nagai

this thread is gettin' pretty long, ain't it?

[IPON]

this thread is gettin' pretty long, ain't it?

Dude, I think this is the longest running not flame thread on defend net over 1900 people check'n us. Who said it could not be done. We owe it all to one innocent question from BJJ.

[jubaji]

Dude, I think this is the longest running not flame thread on defend net over 1900 people check'n us. Who said it could not be done. We owe it all to one innocent question from BJJ.

Building good karma or sumtin'

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Alright, after reading your guy's posts, I'd just like to say some stuff. What is the cross wrist? And also my coach taught us to always grab the fingers for a stand-up. He says it is so they don't lock hands and body slam you to the ground. I also recall ipon saying that I shouldn't choke the guy, I'm not. The neck clinch transition goest to a head lock with his arm inside. I then proceed to throw it to the side and get behind him.