BJJ in multiple opponent situation?

[Kingston]

Great sage: Didn't you say you where leaving this forum?

hmmmmmmmm?

[Great Sage]

Originally posted by Kingston
Great sage: Didn't you say you where leaving this forum?

hmmmmmmmm?

You know that I couldn't really leave you... Especially with that charming personality of yours.

[osopardo]

Originally posted by Great Sage


You won't see Royce Gracie trying to knock anyone out because that's not working towards his strengths. He CAN box however... Royce trains regularly in western boxing (about 3 times a week).

Quote: "I just don' wanna get hit."
-Royce Gracie at UFC I

[Maxetai]

Jules,
You have valid points and I'm not trying to convince you.
The last few posts from the other members are getting to what I'm actually saying and that is that a good fighter can fight an opponent no matter what that opponent's strengths are.

Of cource Royce Gracie is a great fighter because he was prepared to face opponents in ANY range, be it kicking, punching, trapping, grappling. Royce is going beyond his personal style of BJJ or Gracie JJ and is boxing for a good reason. That reason being that boxing is vital to his fighting success. For whatever else, he has experience and a feel for a boxer type opponent and has learned ways to beat them.
To repeat myself again, a good fighter has the ability to fight in any given range. How he will fight is his own preference.

But I still maintain that a tournament like the early UFC favored the grapplers. Plus, the grapplers were prepared for the most part (a little boxing and some kicking, elbows, knees, etc...), and it was the so called strikers that had no idea of what the grapplers could and would do in grappling range partly due to ignorance and underestimation.
Styles by definition are limited. This is why they are called styles: meaning doing something in a certain way.
Doing everything or better yet being prepared for everything transcends style and it's all personal expression.

Oh! Great thread by the way. I'm going to sit back and read all your comments guys.

[IPON]

Great Sage welcome Back

[ryanhall]

Great Sage,
I am aware that GJJ covers much more ground than the average BJJ curriculum.

Also, I agree with your explanation of your comment. Royce did understand all the ranges and therefore had a great advantage.

[jules]

But I still maintain that a tournament like the early UFC favored the grapplers. Plus, the grapplers were prepared for the most part (a little boxing and some kicking, elbows, knees, etc...), and it was the so called strikers that had no idea of what the grapplers could and would do in grappling range partly due to ignorance and underestimation.

So it's the strickers fault. Not some kind of "unfair advantage" in the rules. Besides look at the early UFC's where two strickers went at it. The ended up in the ground also.

[Maxetai]

Exactly Jules,

And the grapplers had to go beyond grappling (in their training and execution) to be effective and they did just that.
The strikers did not go beyond the striking range and thus were unprepared for that kind of tournament.

This underlines what I have been saying here, that all ranges must be taken into account, must be respected, and one must be trained in all of them. This makes for a complete fighter and the positive of all these MMA events is that more and more people realize this and see that a particular "style" alone doesn't "Cut It".

As far as multiple attackers are concerned (as this is the topic of this thread right?), I maintain that standing and striking, and not grappling on the ground offers clear advantages such as the increased ability to run away from the situation. It's common sense and I don't think that because this is the case, this diminishes the value of BJJ, Wrestling, Judo or any other "grappling art). One could easily come up with a scenario where grappling techniques could come in handy even in a multiple attacker situations.

Enough said from my end. Great insight from all of you. Thanks!

[jules]

Maxetai,

And the grapplers had to go beyond grappling (in their training and execution) to be effective and they did just that.
The strikers did not go beyond the striking range and thus were unprepared for that kind of tournament.

Looking back at the early UFC fights, i would have to disagree with you again. The grapplers did not learn new stricks, as a matther of fact what Royce did was what any grappler does in a grappling match. He tries to take the other person down. You didn't see grapplers tryign to low kick people. They did what they do, take people down to the ground.

[tekshow]

somoene else mentioned ranges, and i agree, it's a PIECE of the puzzle...


i would do some of the joint locks and throws possibly from BJJ and judo in a street fight against multiple attackers, but as far as going to the ground and putting someone in the gaurd when there's six other assailants standing by that's probably not going to be the best option...



which is why i agree we should all train multiple ranges and strategies... multiple styles and perspectives....



peace,
joe

[FUH-Q]

ok, seriously, if ur fighting against six other guys the only hope you have of surviving is to be an incredibal talker or be faster than the fastest guy.

also, going to the guard is a bad place to be anyway; there are a lot more positions in bjj than the guard. the average bjj student will be proficiant in shooting and takedown to control techniques (sp). just because you use bjj doesnt mean your automaticly going to your back. i personally love the knee to stomach control position, which would be a great position to have if you needed to evaluate the situation.

[bhp02]

other than a gun, or a sword...
perhaps a numchuck would be good
because not many people
know how to fight one.
Seriously, perhaps 3 small,
untrained opponents would be
the threshold, after that, I think
the BJJ guy is going to get killed.
I've witnessed one guy being beaten up
by a swarm, and it is not pretty. Even when
another guy got involved to help, they were still
overwhelmed.
Best to carry a conceiled knife or something
if you are anticipating being in danger.

[osopardo]

Originally posted by bhp02
Best to carry a conceiled knife or something
if you are anticipating being in danger.

Best to not put yourself in any situation where you are anticipating being in danger. The most effective self defense is common sense.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Of course standing and striking is a better strategy against multiple opponents than taking the fight to the ground. But if there are three or more guys on you, you're going to end up in the hospital or dead either way. You can't win, one of them can clinch with you and the others can strike you...one of them can drill you in the back of the head with his fist or a bottle, gosh the possibilities of nasty defeat are endless. To take three or more tough guys at once you need to be able to KO each of them in one shot without a mistake, which won't happen.
Someone who trained with filipino weopons and was carrying them would have a better time dealing with multiple opponents, provided they weren't armed.

Noone can beat three or more brawlers unarmed unless they are extremely extremly extremely lucky.

[choylifutrocks]

Re: bjj against multiple attackers

Originally posted by wadoguy
I was reading one of the books put out by the Gracie family (forgive me I can't recall which one) and there was an attempt to answer the supposed flaws in bjj. The writer stated that bjj will not protect you against multple, determined attackers and neither will any other system.
He whent on to say that there were many outrageous claims in the martial arts world and that many of the systems that proclaimed they could defend against multiple attackers had proven themselves incapable of defeating even a single opponet in mixed martial arts contests.
I really enjoyed his openess and humilty. The martial arts are filled with people claiming their style is the ultimate and can do miracles. This author franly admitted the limitations of his style.

I would agree that BJJ / Wrestling / etc. (grappling in general) is a must in any person's self defense arsenel, if you will. However, I may have misunderstood you, or failed to pick up the criticism, but calling a Gracie humble is not something I agree with. LOL. They also were right when they said BJJ / any other grappling system, is not designed well for multiple attackers. However, stating no other system is, won't hold up.

For example, read this article by the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...061686,00.html

Also, I believe a MuayThai fighter would fair OK in a multiple attack situation given their tremedous ability to fight from the long range, medium range, short range, and close range.