BJJ in multiple opponent situation?

[FUH-Q]

sorry choi, that doesnt hold up either. its not gonna be like a movie fight where they all circle around and attack one at a time. one is coming from the front and the other from the back. one is going to hold/tackle/distract you while the other beats ur ass.

ur MT (which i train and love) will do u no good when two or more guys charge you, one of them will be able to at least wrap his arms around you and then you have no defense.

in hand to hand combat fighting any more than one capable opponent is a REALLY bad situation that you will probobly not come out of on top.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I'd rather know MT than bjj for multiple attackers, but either way, you're gonna get your ass beat.
It's true that many arts claim to be able to address the issue of multiple attackers, but can't even seem to hold up against one opponent. You can say that those fights were in a ring, but getting slammed by a grappler on pavement with these pieces of glass that you guys always bring up, will put a striker at even more of a disadvantage.
But even so, Vanderlei Silva will fare better against four attackers than Rickson Gracie will.
Mike Tyson has taken on multiple opponents many times and won.

[Maxetai]

But even so, Vanderlei Silva will fare better against four attackers than Rickson Gracie will.

Mike Tyson has taken on multiple opponents many times and won.

So, what you're saying basically is that a good striking art like MT, Boxing, JKD, etc... is better suited to confront multiple opponents.
I agree.

[FUH-Q]

ok, excluding world class professional fighters your gonna get your ass beat.

an interesting note, and im sure someone here can point us to a website that goes more into detail, muhamed ali (at least as good a boxer as tyson if not better) once was involved in an exibition with an amatuer wrestler who challenged that he could get ali to the ground. this was quite a feet because ali could punch while backpeddling (pretty hard to do). in front of a bunch of press this guy shot in and succesfully brought ali (quite possibly one of the most agile boxers ever) to the ground without any problem five times in a row.

the point of this is to say that no matter how good a striker you are chances are if you end up scrapping with a wrestler you are going to the ground, and you better know how to handle yourself down there.


so while yes it may be better to be a striker in this situation your still catching an ass whooping, unless their complete wimps.

[Maxetai]

so while yes it may be better to be a striker in this situation your still catching an ass whooping, unless their complete wimps.

So, the striker has some kind of an advantage against multiple attackers even if it means that his advantage could only be had if the opponents are weak. Sounds good to me and is worth it to keep in mind.

I agree.

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by FUH-Q
sorry choi, that doesnt hold up either. its not gonna be like a ...
in hand to hand combat fighting any more than one capable opponent is a REALLY bad situation that you will probobly not come out of on top.

*capable is the key word

I completely understand where you are coming from, and you are right that there is a very good chance you will not come out on top. My major points were that a) The gracies are in now way humble, and if humble were a planet, they're in a separate universe . b) BJJ is not the art to know in multiple attacker situations. (but is a great system, noone can say otherwise.)

But really in a multiple attack situation, it really depends on how big of pu$$ies your attackers are. Honestly, (not poking fun), I'm not sure if you've had to fight regular people yet, but most of them are ridiculously pu$$y. Have you ever watched a baseball fight? hahahahahaha, they are ridiculous. I love when they show up on the news. Sadly, this is how most peole fight. I've literally had an idiot run and jump at me while throwing a punch. Needless to say, he ended up on his face (with an arm posted so he couldn't push himself up) with me on his back and his face getting rubbed into the gravel. (I didn't hit him though, I was nice and told him to f_ck off I was proud of myself. Self control is a virtue. He liked me after that. It was cool.)

Also, I have been in a multiple attack situation. I actually came out on top, but not because I was tough, it was because my attackers were hopeless. Thus, the multiple attack scenario. I'm not physically average though, so that helped. --The moral of this story is to say that a skilled fighter will have a decent chance of holding her/her own against average (unskilled people). EXCEPTIONS: Add one skilled fighter and your screwed. Have more than like 3 people attacking you and your probably screwed too.

The guys you train MT with are tough, and if multiple trained fighters attacked me (or the majority of people for that matter), I would end up in a hospital.

Also, don't get me wrong, I think grappling is invaluable. I wrestled, and it definately helps. I think this topic is slightly scewed assuming that your opponents will be skilled.

For an example of how pu$$y real people are go to Kazaa, under video's search "Mike Vallely". THere should be a video that says something like "Mike Vallely vs. 4 ocks". An unskilled fighter, who is probably tough, vs. 4 average weenies.

All and all, I think we're on the same page.

[huey]

from what i have gathered in this thread most of you are in agreement that multiple attacker situations are no win situations.

"bjj is not good because they go to the ground leaving other assailants behind him."
"strikers have the best chance but..."
"one comes from the side or back while the others attack from other sides."
"the idea that an art can defend against multiple attacker situations is bull$h!t."

alright but the alternative is...?
if you are in the situation, about to get a good thumping, what would you do?
ask yourself this honestly because it is very important.
if you are surrounded by, say, three guys your size bent on rippin you a new one, what would you do?

do you wait for them to make the first move or do you make the first move?
if you have ever been in a fight you know the tense moment just before the stuff starts flying. do you wait or make the first move?
is that first move to turn and run, throw the first blow, or wait to see if your face can take the hit?
at that moment when movement is key you have to figure out what you are going to do before it happens.
the first movement will set it off, so be sure it is the right movement.

three opponents will first give off signs that the fight is about to happen. again if you have been in a fight you'll know what i am talking about. the screaming, the foul language, the body motions,etc.

what i haven't seen once is that if there are three guys you move first and take the first guy out quickly and extremely violently without thought to his well being and i am not talking about simply knocking him out. i am saying the complete motion with the intended purpose of ending him. a chop to the throat and a neck ring (snap his head around before his body can catch up)would do this pretty effectively but use whatever you want as long as it is lethal. this is done loudly and quickly and then you move on to the next guy before he has time to react, i.e. running up and tackling you or holding you while the other guy gets to take pock shots at you until your face looks like hamburger. you break his legs, grab his hair while elbowing him in the face twice, ring his neck, kick the next guy in the balls, grab his hair and kneelift him in the face until he falls to his knees.

the ufc,wec,pride,etc. do have rules that do not allow certain techniques and or weapon placements that will give the reciever huge problems medically and even death. sure bjj practitioners know them and are just as forbidden to use them as everyone else but a good chop to the neck would end a lot of ground and pound attacks( remember the big guy in ufc 1,2, or 3 that lost to a kenpo alternate who kept chopping away at that very spot). in a real situation, you do not have rules or someone yelling "let's get it on" you just move and hope you hit them hard enough to end it within 3 - 5 seconds.

am i saying this would work in every situation or that multiple attacker defense is easy? no
taking a human life is not an easy thing to think of but under the circumstances...
it's posts like this that make me thankful for my teacher.

[choylifutrocks]

I agree that we all agree it's a bad situation

huey, what do you study?

[huey]

choylifutrocks

i have read a few of your posts and i like the thinking you have.

i study and teach a chinese martial art called shou shu. it is derived of seven animal styles and mainlines street fighting.
the school is moore's karate and kung fu.

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by huey
choylifutrocks

i have read a few of your posts and i like the thinking you have.

i study and teach a chinese martial art called shou shu. it is derived of seven animal styles and mainlines street fighting.
the school is moore's karate and kung fu.

Thanks huey, I'm glad you like my posts. Shou Shu, interesting. I can' t find too much info on it other than the fact that it has a long history. Sounds really cool though.

[IPON]

huey: I agree with what you are saying. The thing with multiple attackers is that they share one heart (individuals empowered by the group) so taking out one usually with make non-gang members back down. It depends on the situation, of course, I would try to de-escalate the situation if possible (and try and not get crazed and cocky myself). As a bouncer, I have been in this situation a few times and honestly, I am silent and wait, they shout a curse but I won't make the first move unless someone get too close. Like Choy said, there are a lot of wusses out there.

choylifutrocks: "I think this topic is slightly scewed assuming that your opponents will be skilled"

I personally do not think it is a skewed topic, IMHO everyone should train with the assumption they will meet a skilled fighter. I think you do yourself a disservice by assuming that "most people are unskilled. IMHO I think if you train for the average you become average. You never know when you can meet that one person.

A bouncer I wore with used to say the same thing about thing he would do to the "average person" and I showed him how it would work against me and he would get eff'd up trying. He said "yeah but I would do that to you" I responded "if you didn't know me how would you know what I knew or didn't know"

Anyway just my 2 cents

[kid_chocolate]

re: multiple attackers

I think most of you guys have kind-of the right idea. It all depends whether you are attacked by wusses or tough guys. Imagine a large strong football player against even 5 nerdy 130lb computer geeks. I would back the football player every time. You can never say that such and such an art will help every time or even give an advantage; its just too variable.

someone said this....

Also, I have been in a multiple attack situation. I actually came out on top, but not because I was tough, it was because my attackers were hopeless. Thus, the multiple attack scenario. I'm not physically average though, so that helped

Good point. Just out of interest, how did these attackers jump you? Did they work together? Were they big/small/aggressive/weak? You say you are not physically average (how?). Do you think that this had more to do with it than your MA skills?

One element I feel that some of you have not considered much is the standup clinching/contact part of an encounter. This is pretty likely to happen if you are rushed by several guys and you have to be able to deal with it and stay on your feet. People like bjj, judo, wrestling guys are used to this and can stay standing and strike back. Boxers and other pure strikers tend to lack this ability unless cross-trained. Muay Thai, which some have metioned, is rediculously weak to a real wrestler in the standup.

Paradoxically the stikers end up having less opportunity to use striking (the best strategy) than the grapplers because they can't stay upright. Its wrong to assume that every grappler wants to "take the fight to the ground". This is just a tactic they employ in 1 on 1 sports combat to make for an easy win against strikers.

To change topic a bit, what do you guys think about the contrasting military/security combat training used by the old USSR and Chinese governments? The Russians start with a contact sport grappling style (sambo) and build striking from the clinch and combatives onto the grappling base. It makes sense because most Russians encounter grappling of some sort at an early age.

The Chinese do the opposite and start with a combat sport striking form (san shou), later adding throws and submissions + combative applications. Both of these approaches work well and play to the national strength of the country. An intelligent approach that we should copy? If so would we go with striking or grappling?

[choylifutrocks]

Originally posted by IPON

I personally do not think it is a skewed topic, IMHO everyone should train with the assumption they will meet a skilled fighter. I think you do yourself a disservice by assuming that "most people are unskilled. IMHO I think if you train for the average you become average. You never know when you can meet that one person.

Good point IPON, and I understand. That is why I train When I was unskilled I was above average in the first place, but I train because I know there is the chance I could get in a situation with a skilled fighter.

But I still maintain that logically the topic is skewed, but not far fetched. If 1/20 fighters is skilled, and there are 3 fighters, there is statistically only a 1/60 chance that you will be facing three skilled opponents. That's 1.6%. If we have any misunderstanding it's because I'm just weird...lol..I always look at things like that, and logically, everyone understands things better the way they see them, that's why I'm going to offer to agree to disagree

Good point though.

[choylifutrocks]

Re: re: multiple attackers

Originally posted by kid_chocolate

Good point. Just out of interest, how did these attackers jump you? Did they work together? Were they big/small/aggressive/weak? You say you are not physically average (how?). Do you think that this had more to do with it than your MA skills?

This was before I had any skill's actually. There were four guys, one opted not to fight b/c I was cool with him, so I ended up with three. It was stupid really, one hit me in the gut cuz I let him...he talked tough, so it was a stupid macho thing (I know, really dumb) , and I laughed and called him a pussy just messing around. THen they started. They were about average size and stature, there was one agressor the other two popped in and out when they (thought) they saw opportunity. I was smaller at the time, I was a teen but for example right now I'm 5'11" 200 lbs, and fast. I think this actually helped more than anything else would have in a multiple attackers situation. They never circled me, I kept them in front and most of the time there was atleast one on the ground. Every time they attempted to move in on me at once they became uncoordinated and just got in each others way. IPON, maybe you can confirm, but what worked best for me was just to simply toss one out of the way, and get the other. That is why I say my physical stature helped, for the tossing . LOL, I take it back, there was one time that one guy got behind me, but I threw him that way in the first place so it was my fault. He actually tried to run and jump kick me in the back of the head after that. He was the bigger one, and the agressor of the three. He was the only one whos name I knew. I heard him behind me, and I'll just say he didn't get me.

Also, I don't care what anyone says. Lift weights. Get big, get strong. You'd have to look like ronnie coleman before you really slow down. When you've got muscle on you, strikes hurt a lot less, and you hit a lot harder. Muscular size matters. Also when you train weights you have better muscle tone, which really just means that your muscles are in a better position to respond. I.E. better reaction times.

[IPON]

Re: Re: re: multiple attackers

Originally posted by choylifutrocks


When you've got muscle on you, strikes hurt a lot less, and you hit a lot harder. Muscular size matters.

Muscles do matter the key is to stay flexable and don't focus on the number so much. The problem is you can't build muscle around the mandible, well I train with my girl but that's different A good clean shot to the jaw and lights out.

regarding the multiple it really depends but I would not want anyone behind me (at least knowingly) that would be enogh to start me fighting in a normal circumstance. I have to tell you something and of course you don't know me but I am truthful and though cocky I don't talk shit. The times that I have deescalated mutiple conflict was becuase I said I told them I would not win but I would kill at least one and cripple at least two and , in this case, there were 5. Smart talk hell no!! Actually quite stupid I could have easily been killed, but I meant it (my temperment is what I have to control and I am good but sometime I slip). IMHO, the worst thing you can do is bluff, becuase what if someone calls it. Becuase some that has heart will not care about your bluff. Of course they could alos pull out 9mm and that could have happened to me. The other times people have gotton too close A punch to the chest or choke was enough.

I think we are on the same page regarding teh topic being skewed, though I am not sure about the math it mabe better to list as probability. What bothers me is when instructors say "this will work on the average person" an no one thinks wait what about the peopel in my school or the school down the street or next state. I agree most people have a low probability of meeting highly skilled/trained fighter just like the average person probably has not have many serious fights. But when you train be like you should take this in consideration, there are levels of skill and there are just plain nuts outthere that are well seasoned with no formal training So when training be like Nike and "Just do it"