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WD: I don't think you'll find a breed of dog that enjoys being alone for eight hours. Normally, only aged, very old dogs would tolerate it well. Also, these old dogs have little tolerance for children. They are old, grumpy, and are retired from playing and want to eat, sleep, and relax. As for doberman's being too aggressive against strangers; you said you wanted a watch dog as well didn't you? I don't think a dog friendly to all strangers would be much of one. Regardless of breeed, I think the only way you'd find a dog that'd be 'comfortable' for 8 hours alone would be buying a very mature, older dog.
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PD pretty much handled this, as I knew he would. I do feel compelled to add a couple of things. I was raised around pit dogs and I would LOVE to own another one. But you know what? It’s a commitment, and my present circumstances do not make it a practical choice.
I have two kids (ages 9 and 11) and I live on a cul-de-sac that has about thirty-five kids on it. (Bunch of ****ing breeders around here) I recently put a Boxer down and was once again looking longingly at a pit dog for a replacement. It’s simply not practical for me. I have kids going in and out of my house at a rate that would blow your mind. Half of them don’t even knock. There is a half pipe in the back yard, a quarter pipe in front and the kids all hang here. What happens if my boy gets into a fight in the back yard with one of the neighborhood kids? What happens if my dog decides the “home team” needs a bit of help? What if my dog defines “help” as a full bore attack? What if the dog is inside and someone forgets to close the front door? The repercussions of a loose pit dog are not something that I am willing to accept. I am NOT saying that I let any of my dogs run loose. What I am saying is that the reality of my present situation (with numerous kids and total chaos raining supreme) makes the possibility of an unleashed dog in the front yard far too high to have a serious dog involved in the equation. I WILL own another pit dog, but not now. It doesn’t fit my present situation.
Now, about Boxers. If you get one you are willing to accept the fact that your dog will probably die of cancer. Period. You can thank the morons that breed for nothing other than their perception of visual perfection for this. They have also taken the “bully head” thing and bred for such pushed in noses that some of the dogs can’t run around the block without being winded. There are breeders out there doing Shuthzund work with Boxers that are breeding them for their physical capabilities and courage. (Courage is written into the standard over and over for the Boxer. The show dog people have totally ignored what I would consider to be the most important aspect of the dog)
For the most part, they are totally insane for the first two years of their life. Not all of them are like that, but I would say most are.
Boxers are VERY people oriented. I don’t think one will work for you if you want to leave it in the yard for 8 hours a day. A Boxer doesn’t give a damn about the 2,000 sq ft back yard you have. He cares about the one square foot YOU are in. Two could work for you, but they are high-energy dogs. Two young dogs will tear a landscaped yard apart in short order. They are also very capable of fence jumping. My old one could clear six feet like it was nothing.
An older dog is a viable alternative, but most of the rescue organizations will not place a dog with you if it is going to be left in a yard 8 hours a day, five days a week. Here is a link for a Boxer rescue page. You will note a LOT of these dogs are less than two years old. That goes back to what I said about them being insane for the first two years of their life. People get into something they can’t handle and dump the dog. Here’s the link.
That is for a Los Angeles based organization. Boxer rescues are everywhere and they have far two many dogs. Largely for the reasons I have just stated.
On the upside, once the Boxer grows a brain, they’re great. (Assuming the owner is capable of training the dog) Mine have been rock solid with kids. I saw my son get into a fight in the back yard and my dog simply forced his way between the kids and pushed my son away from the other child with his head. The few times he did jump the fence (until I broke him of the habit) he hung out in the front yard with no problems. He was never dog aggressive and he never was in a fight. Then my son was attacked by a German Shepherd on the beach. The dog chased him out into the water. After that my son was understandably afraid of dogs for a while. The Boxer knew this and after this incident he wouldn’t let a strange dog within a hundred feet of my son. When my son’s fears receded, so did my Boxer’s newly found dog aggressive tendencies. He was protective of my wife and children when I was not around, but not to the point of being death on a stick. (I once had an Akita that was a freaking man killer. He divided the world into family and good for killing. SPOOKY) My Boxer would simply place himself in between my family and a stranger and stand his ground. If the stranger kept coming he would start to get threatening. When I was there he was fine with everybody.
I now have a new Boxer that is nine months old. I bought him from a breeder that does NOT breed for looks. They are large and coarse by show dog standards. The pup I have house trained in less then a week with 3 accidents. I have had a lot of intelligent dogs, but this one rates up at the top. Here is a picture of some of the dogs this breeder has.
The male on the right is one hundred and ten pounds, which by Boxer standards is huge. The female on the left is about 9 months old.
If you do decide to buy an American Bulldog, buyer beware. There is a lot of bull crap happening with that breed. The rates of hip dysplasia are atrocious. Fortunately the dogs have a high pain tolerance so a lot of owners never even know there is a problem.
A Bull Mastiff might be an option. I have a friend that has one. They prefer to sleep most of the time so I don’t think leaving one in a back yard would be that big of a problem. They drool like crazy, and once again there are health problems you need to research before you purchase.
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Great post Mickey Finn! Great post.
I sure do wish people thought about things as much as you obviously do before they got a dog ...
Yours truly,
Joe
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Joe Manco - i am really curious as to your opinions on the whole kennel/chain argument. When i got a dog I spent a lot of time researching breeds and breeders, and ended up with a german sheperd from really good, working dog stock. Spent a lot of time researching a trainer, and he was adamant about not putting a dog on a chain This guy really knew his stuff (or so I thought) and insisted I build a kennel, with a dog house inside, as the only way for a dog to be kept. That the chain would in fact make her mean. This was a guy who made a nice living training dogs, and was really good at it as well - he had 1/2 dozen of the best trained sheperds you have ever seen.
Is this just your experience or do all real dog men raise their dogs this way? Is it just with pit dogs, or with all dogs? thanks in advance for your time and advice.Comment
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Maybe I'll just get a poodle
Thank you Mr. Manco. I think you are finally figuring out where I am coming from. True, I know next to nothing about the breed. Which is why I originally posted this thread. I do have extensive experience raising dogs, (hounds specifically, but a few other breeds too), but as you know, the difference between breeds can be as great as the difference between a cat and a mouse. I do understand where you are coming from with the chain. NOW, after you were kind enough to explain it.Originally posted by Joe Manco
But the moral of this story, friend Water Dragon, is YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT PREPARED for a dog like this. You have no idea WTF you're getting, nor do you have a realistic perspective as to how to contain one.
Well, I have decided that a Pit Bull would not be the choice for my family at this time. And I thank you, Mickey Finn, for that. That is the exact reason I will not own a German Shephard. They too, have a tendency to go after other children. I am interested in a Boxer, but that breed may have to wait until my wife stops working. (which we are both hoping is in a year or two.) Mickey, any more info on the American Bull would be much appreciated.
FYI, any animal I purchase would not be until May, (my boy's B-day). But, as I have ruled out the breeds I know...
Hounds are not good city dogs, Doberman's are too skittish for young children, and Rotts are just not good for young children at all, I am in search of a dog that will fit in to my current situation. THIS is why I wrote you Mr. Manco, as you seem sincerely caring for the breed in your past posts. I hope your Poncho can give you another good 4-6 years of happiness as a healthy, well behaved animal.
Once again, I thank you both for providing me some important information on a breed of dog I knew next to nothing about. I'll leave you with this piece I found about the breed, which is what sparked my interest in the first place.
That sly smile, those determined eyes, that unwaning pleasure to please... the mere quality and characteristics of the APBT have evoked more human emotional, rational, and irrational response than any other breed that exists today. By no means are these dogs people-haters or people-eaters. Their natural aggressive tendencies are toward other dogs and animals, not people. However if they are properly socialized they will not even be aggressive with them. These are truly quality companions for quality owners only! The American Pit Bull Terrier is a good-natured, amusing, extremely loyal and affectionate family pet, which is good with children and adults. Almost always obedient, it is always eager to please its master. It is an extremely courageous and intelligent guard dog that is very full of vitality. Highly protective of his owners and the owner's property, it will fight an enemy to the death. It is usually very friendly, but has an uncanny ability to know when it needs to protect and when everything is okay. The American Pit Bull Terrier can be willful and needs a firm hand. It has a very high dominance level and should not be trusted with other pets. For the most part they are very friendly, but not recommended for most people. Excellent with children in the family, they have a high pain tolerance and will happily put up with rough child play. As with any breed, they should not be left alone with unfamiliar children. Originally used as fighting dogs, the powerful American Pit Bull may go for the throat of strange dogs. A minimum of training will produce a tranquil, obedient dog. Socialize very thoroughly when young to combat aggressive tendencies and be sure to keep the dog under control when other dogs are present. It has given outstanding results as a guardian of property, but is at the same time esteemed as a companion dog. When properly trained and socialized, this is a very good dog and a great family companion. Unfortunately, some choose to promote the fighting instinct in the breed, giving it a bad name.
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joemurph
Dog "trainers" are just that: TRAINERS. They have no more knowledge of RAISING dogs than I do in training them. Myself, I don't train my dogs - they grow up to be what their genetics dictate. I breed my dogs based on whether or not GENETICALLY they conform to certain standards I have, among them temperament.
As good as your trainer friend may be at training dogs, unless he has raised literally hundreds of them (half in kennels, the other half on chains), then he is not qualified to make comments about chain raising by comparison to kennel raising. Just as unless I have "trained" hundreds of dogs I am not qualified to make comments on dog training. What actually happens is many times mean dogs are PUT ON chains, to make sure they don't get away (like in a junkyard) ... and then people make the unwarranted conclusion that the chain "made" the dog mean. In reality that is putting the proverbial cart before the horse.
Me? I HAVE raised literally hundreds of dogs on a chain. No, not of every breed, but of my chosen breed. I cannot comment on the temperaments of other breeds in general, because I have not raised large numbers of them, but I can state without question that raising my dogs on the chain has NOT made a single one mean. I have 36 dogs on chains right now. Most over 2 years old and raised that way since birth. Not a SINGLE ONE is people mean, not even a little bit.
So, as far as chain-raising goes, I don't know what else to tell you. It is less expensive; it gives the dogs more room; it is easier to clean up after; it enables more intimate contact between dog and owner w/o opening and closing a door; and it does NOT make a dog mean. Poor genetics and poor ownership do that. But these things have nothing to do with a chain.
Water Dragon:
Good call. And I am sorry for being so cross (it's hard to step out of this "Joe Manco" persona sometimes
). You actually seem like a very cool guy, so again I apologize.
Anyway, I would like to make a comment about that piece that you took out of that "mini-encyclopedia" (I have that book somewhere around here, and it is actually OK) - but the last comment just really irks me. It says, "Unfortunately, some choose to promote the fighting instinct in the breed, giving it a bad name."
The truth is, that book (like all others in their effort to be "politically correct") has it bass-ackwards. It is the dogman who MADE the pit bull what it is. The reality is ... CLUELESS PET OWNERS are the ones who mishandle the breed, let it escape, don't understand its instincts ... which is how "incidents" occur ... which is TRULY what winds up giving the breed its bad name. That and ghetto punks who get ahold of them and flaunt their abilities.
In the hands of true dogmen is where these dogs belong. They MADE them what they are, they UNDERSTAND what they are, and they HANDLE them accordingly.
Pit bulls *can* make great pets. The best a man could ask for ... IFFF handled by someone who understands them and handles them correctly. But like I said, they usually wind up being too much dog in the hands of not enough owner. When in competent hands there is no breed of dog that can compare.
Yours truly,
Joe
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My experience with a chained dog is:
First, you need to understand that a dog does not think like a person does. When you put a dog on a chain, it knows that if you grab it's collar, (or touch around it's neck for that matter) it's going on the chain. In comparison, if you open a door and tell the dog to go in, sometimes it is in a car, sometimes in the house, and sometimes in the kennel.
What happens is the dog gets off the chain somehow and runs free. Well, if someone besides you gets the dog and tries to catch it, the dog thinks "Oh sh*t!! I'm going back on the chain" and bites. That's how it makes the dog mean. The dog will not go around attacking people, but if you try to catch him and you're not the owner, watch out.
Now, I would assume the same thing happens with a Pit, but, not many people are going to run around and try to catch a loose Pit. Don't ask me why they would try with a Shephard or any dog they don't know well but they do.Comment
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Nah, that's not true at all.
If any dog bites someone for grabbing it to put it back on the chain, or in his kennel, he should be shot. I don't care what breed it is. I mean, any dog that flinches from contact, tries to bite when handled, etc., should be PUT DOWN. Period.
See, that's the problem with most dog owners, they make excuses for bullsh!t behavior: "Oh, well Foo-Foo is just real protective" ... "Oh, well Foo-Foo just doesn't like uniforms" ... "Oh, well Foo-Foo doesn't like it when you get near him while he's eating" ... "Oh, well sometimes Foo-Foo just doesn't like to be petted" ...
What a bunch of excuses for allowing a worthless piece of sh!t to live.
The fact is, "Foo-Foo" should have his dumb a$$ euthanized and his carcass tossed into a dumpster. Then his owner should go out and buy a real dog ... THAT KNOWS WHO TO LIKE ... THAT CAN HANDLE BEING TOUCHED WHILE HE'S EATING ... THAT APPRECIATES BEING PETTED!!!
See, that's why we call them DOMESTICATED dogs. They submit to man. Too many NICE dogs get put down in the pounds every day for anyone to let even ONE unstable, worthless piech of sh!t man-biter live. Hell, even the baddest of bulldogs will let their owner do everything from put him on the chain, pet him while he's eating ... man, you can even give these dogs STITCHES (w/o anesthesia) and they won't flinch. So to tolerate sketchy behavior is the mark of your typical, clueless pet owner.
Anyway, back to chains.
A dog simply CAN'T get off of a good chain set up, so the point is moot. (Well, I suppose you can have the collar too loose ... but even then a bulldog will just hit the first CRITTER he runs into ...), but he certainly won't bite you for scooping his a$$ back up and putting him back where he belongs.
That just isn't true of a normal dog - and smacks of pure fantasy conjecture on your part
Yours truly,
Joe
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You know Manco watching you post on here has finally forced me come to terms with what kind f'ed up mentalities some people are genetically inclined to perpetrate.
First off, you may have raised many dogs, but that doesn't mean you have the intellligence or insight to garner common sense conclsuions in regards to their behavior.
Putting a dog on a chain will make a dog agressive simply because the dog is lashing out against what it perceives as punishable behavior by you.
Just like a person will lash out if it is cruelly treated by someone, and so on.
A dog being on a chain is an unatural state for it to be in. Domestic or not, a dog is not going to accept being on a chain when it doesn't want to be on a chain!
The only dog that would is one that has been abused to the point of absolute meakness.
For you to sit here and say with such lust that any dog that lashes out at a person should be put down like the useless piece of shit that it is shows what little concern you have for living things in general.
The frightening thing is very few people here seem to realize that, or they simply do not care.
Your dogs are perceived as a commodity by you, plain and simple. You see them as a means to an end, and if they are unable to perform any viable function for you and your maniacal hobby then they have very little worth.
Your insights into animal behavior are comparable to that of a mongoloid, but I think they would at least be more inclined to treat another livng thing with a slightly higher degree of compassion.
If anyone should be denied an animal it is you. People like you breed for nothing more than profit and juvenile fantasies, and are the reasons why we have pounds that are so severely overpopulated.
It's impossible for me to accept that you believe half the bullshlt you spout on here.Comment
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Snot Sleeve:
Wipe your nose, son. I don't really care what's "impossible" for you to believe or not. Your brain's inability to comprehend the FACTS I just told you is a qualitiative assessment of YOU ... not of the reality you cannot comprehend.
I will repeat myself for the learning impaired: I have raised literally HUNDREDS of dogs on chains over the last 11 years and NOT ONE ever became mean as a result. I am not popping off with a theory I invented out of my head, like you and WD, I am speaking from bona fide experience.
Did that sink in?
By contrast, please give me an indepth analysis as to how a dog perceives being put on a chain as "punishment" that will make him mean ... while being placed behind the bars of a kennel will be perceived as a great joy that he will find "fun." I want a detailed write-up of this + your resume of qualifications and experience to open your mouth on the subject.
The fact is, you are one of the many candya$$ blowhards in life who thinks his MISGUIDED IMAGINATION = intimate knowledge of dogs (or anything else). You said, ""Putting a dog on a chain will make a dog agressive simply because the dog is lashing out against what it perceives as punishable behavior by you."
Hey rockhead: I just got through telling you this has never happened to me ONCE. In 11 years. If anyone lacks "the intellligence or insight to garner common sense conclsuions in regards to their behavior" it would be YOU. This simply doesn't happen. EVER. With any breed ... unless you have a totally unacceptable individual who would bite you for any number of reasons, chain or no chain. And YES, such an individual should be put down.
The only thing you got right is, YES, I *have* "little concern" for domesticated dogs who cannot be handled without risk of biting their handler. Such animals absolutely SHOULD be put down.
As for your final laughable statement, sorry, no one who buys an $800 - $1,000 dog from me is going to stick it in the pound. My customer base is formed of serious enthusiasts, not blowhard novices LIKE YOU who buy a dog, have no idea how to keep it, and so dump in in the pound because they can't handle it. They're a little passed the idiot stage by the time they come to me.
Yours truly,
Joe
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Ah, shit, your first post, huh?
Another troll.
Just go f*ck yourself. How about that?
Yours truly,
Joe
SOME MEAN DOGS ON CHAINS
This bitch would much rather be behind bars in a tiny kennel.
Same w/ this bitch.
Same w/ this male. He's yet another miserable dog who would trade his 314 square feet of free space in the woods ... for a little piece of shit 12' x 6' kennel on cement in your back yard.
You're right - I don't know *anything* and you know everything. All of the above dogs are mean and unhappy. Whatever, clown.
[Edited by Joe Manco on 11-25-2000 at 07:59 AM]Comment
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Remember Joe is the world's leading expert on every topic. Debating with Manco is akin to banging your head against a brick wall. No matter how much you know, Manco knows more and will always be composing his next pitch rather than parsing your contributions. He slams other people for not accepting his dubious credentials, yet he does not pay any mind to others. The transaction goes something like:
Other Person: "Joe, I think you're wrong about xyx, this is what I have observed ...."
Pit Dog: "I'm an expert, I have done abcdefg 100 million times. I have forgotten more than you know about xyz. I win. End of discussion. Now STFU. You're a fag, insult, insult, insult...
Other Person (thinks to himself) "This guy's a nutter. Best leave well alone."
Pit Dog: "Another victory in cyberspace! I FUKIN RULE! Time to go to http://www.danni.com for a celebration jerk-off.".Comment
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LOL, and here comes Beatle.
He's the *real* accomplished one. He neither argues for, or against, any subject ... but instead just follows me around with insults like a retarded, jealous boy.
Dubious credentials, my a$$. Yes, Creeping Crud, I AM an expert on dogs, bulldogs especially. And, yes, I DO know more about boxng than most. Those are the subjects I argue about mostly. If you'd pull your head out of *my* ass (from following me so closely), you'd realize you won't see me arguing as an expert about wrestling, or any number of things ... but you will see me arguing on subjects I do in fact know something about.
LOL, however, the only time we will *ever* see you, Beatle, is coming up from the ground to walk in one of my footprints, aimessly mumbling about me. So give yourself a pat on the back for being so far along in the world where you stand for nothing, and can offer nothing, except for trying to deride someone on the internet ... and doing it frequently enough to the point of pathology.
But yes, I clearly won this argument here. There were two unarmed civilians waging war against an army of experience, so it could end in no other way. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Yours truly,
Joe
[Edited by Joe Manco on 11-25-2000 at 08:14 AM]Comment
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Gawd. This moron talks as if he received a degree from an accredited institution. The reality is he owned a few dogs while living in some backwater, read a few crappy "Pit Dog's are the World's greatest warriors" books, put up a shite website and then.... Bob's your uncle... he's a world expert. Don't listen to this half-baked eejit, he is more intent on ego inflation (his own) than talking about facts. The SPCA come and clean up after fukwits like Pit Dog have become bored with their "sport". Unfortunately there are many fukwits like Joe without strong father figures that over-compensate by fanatasizing about the genetics of an animal bred to do nothing else but kill. And let's be real, Pit has been involved in illegal activites connected with dog-fighting. He picks and chooses the laws he obeys. It's all about Joe getting his jollies watching dogs shred each other. Oh yeah, I forgot, the dogs LOVE it. Yeah, and the Nazis were just taking orders. Hey Pit, do you feel like a man yet after all that boxing and dog-fighting? Deep-down you feel inadequate, you'll always have something to prove.Comment
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LOL Mr. Troll/Reject ... I'm sorry, but *who's* trying to prove something here because he feels inadequate?
Let me ask you something: where has there ever been a post: "Beatle/Tez/WhoEverElseYouCharadeAs - tell me X"?
There hasn't.
Who has EVER sought your advice on this forum after all these years?
No one.
Why? Because you have nothing of worth to convey to a forum of fighters. In case you haven't noticed, Bright Guy, this is a FIGHT forum. Some who come here wrestle, some box, some do BJJ, and yes there is a segment who are interested in fighting dogs ... but the common element here is an interest in FIGHTING.
I am sorry if I have tons of experience with fighting dogs, a decent amount in boxing, and an adequate amount of BJJ instruction under my belt. And I am sorry you have NO real experience of interest to fighters, and are thus an anachronism on this forum. Face it, MANY here find my hobby interesting, which is why I am deluged with questions about it. I have more than a degree in dogs. You can get a degree going to school for 4 years part time. I have lived and breathed bulldogs for 3x that long.
See your problem Beatle/Tez/SleepSleeve is no one finds you interesting. That is why you have to take potshots at me, because once again it is the *only* way you get noticed.
Let me rub your face in this again ... you have NOT A SHRED of expertise in any subject any member here would find interesting, or would ever stop to ask you a question about. Could this possibly be why you have relegated yourself to be a tick on my ass? The truth is, you come here and jump up and down on threads *I* happen to visit, because you are voicing YOUR feelings of inadequacy.
So LISTEN UP EVERYONE! Start asking Beatle/Tez questions about boxing/dogs now ... and let this "smart guy" field them and state his credentials for doing so. While I sit back and LMAO.
Yours truly,
Joe
[Edited by Joe Manco on 11-25-2000 at 11:13 AM]Comment
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