open to wrist locks?

[chris davis 200]

HI all,

I Rolled with an ex Judo friend of mine recentley and found that in his ground work, he was very open to wrist locking. Due to his gripping style - soft wrist.

I used this to immobilise him on two occations.

He holds a second dan.

I was not really suprised to be honest, after taking Judo for a time, i knew that in the groundwork wrist locking once a grab was made for the gi would work.

After looking into this further i have found that this is mainly due to the complete absence of wrist locking from competative Judo. The training has no accounting for the opportunity to lock the wrists. And during Kano's tour of Japan he came upon this problem at two dojo's where one of his judo ka was defeated by a wrist break.

Kiraku-ryu jujutsu has an account of a certain shihan's defeat of a strong judoka, using their special technique - ara uma - which is basically aikido nikkyo. The judoka obviously put out a relaxed wrist to grab the other's gi/kimono and got locked out.

Now i know that HERE the thought of locking a wrist is not overly appriciated. But in a real situation against a trained opponent a Judo ka could have his wrist broken by this type of technique.

As BJJ has some close ties to Judo also, in the grabbing of a gi is the wrist solid or soft? If soft, it could be open to wrist breaks?

Anyone else had experience of this or any comments.

cheers
Chris

[Thai Bri]

I think that, like most locks, they're probably easier to pull off on the ground than standing up. Position before submission and all that.

I remember training with one guy in Japanese Jiu Jitsu (which I didn't rate after a while there). When training wristlocks and throws he was so supple that the just didn't work on him, even in the "die to your opponents move" environment of that dojo.

In a real figt, some drugged up looney could fight through the pain of the lock, and even a subsequent break. I think its more appropriate and effective to train high percentage techniques that no one could fight through, like knock outs and the like.

[Szczepankiewicz]

We play a lot with wristlocks. I tell students when I teach them that wrist locks are effective at the beginning or at the end of a confrontation.

Once you get all nice and sweaty they become difficult to execute.

The reasons you probably locked this fellow out is because wrist locks are illegal in judo and he's never trained in any of them. It's a nice sneaky move to be sure.

My instructor put me in a toe lock the other day and I couldn't tap fast enough.

If someone 'fights through' a wrist lock bully for them. I'll fight a one armed broken wristed man any day of the week.

[chris davis 200]

Agreed from a street perspective if we are talking about drugged up loons.

I have broke someones wrist in an encounter and he didnt bat an eyelid - He was off his face.

But have restrained others with wrist locks. I think that they are very effective when used at the right time - and in the right situation.

Most japanese that i have met have been very flexible and the application of a lock has to be a suden snap rather than a steady application of force, if it where to be applied correctly. Tiss a bit easier on your average british meat head!

But talking about Judo & Brazillian JJ grabs open to locking - what are your thoughts?

Cheers
chris

[chris davis 200]

If someone 'fights through' a wrist lock bully for them. I'll fight a one armed broken wristed man any day of the week.

LOL - good point!!

[Szczepankiewicz]

used at the right time - and in the right situation.

There you have summed up a key principle right nicely.

Spanky

[doubleouch]

I use them in bjj classes. They are suprisingly hard to get. Even with guys who aren't used to them. With beginners it's easy, but with guys who have some experience it is not as easy as you might think. There is a perception in bjj circles that wrist locking is cheating though. I don't agree with that.

[Cain]

I once broke a guys shoulder AND displaced his shoulder joint, and he STILL fought very well back.. speed can do wonders for your fighting skills...

[jules]

wrist locks are not easy to get....

[Szczepankiewicz]

and he STILL fought very well back

Yes Cain, but you're a pansy.

[chris davis 200]

wrist locks are not easy to get....

They are suprisingly hard to get. Even with guys who aren't used to them. With beginners it's easy, but with guys who have some experience it is not as easy as you might think.

And you think an arm bar or naked choke is?

No fighting concept or principle is 'easy to get' otherwise it would be used all the time.

I think that my experience in TJJ has given me a good knowledge of wrist locks so they are fairly natural to me. Many think of wrist locks as is taking the hand off a grab and twisting or applying pressure. This is one way. Better though is to let your opponent have the grab, then lock the wrist from there.

is a perception in bjj circles that wrist locking is cheating though.

if i were a BJJ / Judo stylist i would think it is cheating a bit too, cause it could take most of my ground techniques away from me. Most ground work requires 2 hands with full mobility! a broken wrist would hinder you somewhat.

chars

chris

[jules]

My friend uses it alot when he can't get an armbar from the mount. It's just that the area you are bending is so small that it's hard to get one hand over the guys hand and another on his lower wrist.. IMHO that is.

[chris davis 200]

yeh i know what you mean.

Have you tried ....

If he is grabbing with his right hand to your lapel,

You reach over with your right hand and grip his hand along the ridge of his hand under the little finger, then twist it around so the thumb of his hand is facing down your body, re inforce your grip with the other hand if needed and sit/ curl your body up, whilst clamping the hand into your chest. you will apply the lock to the tendon connecting the thumb. Tiss Veerrrrryyyyy painful!!!!!!!!!

will try and find a standing aikido equilivant. ang on! although this is just to demo the type of lock i mean.

There are MANY many other locks but i like this one as it is often unexpectd

[chris davis 200]

Mwwwwwwwahahahahahah

http://www.happyherbalist.com/nikkyo.htm

That is really funny! Happyherbalist!!! Oh dear!

But check out the lock - this is SIMILAR to what i mean.

http://www.aikidoofmanhattan.com/animate1.html

At one point in this sequence he does a similar lock also, when the hand grabs the lapel. but then he pulls it off to do something else.

cheers
chris

[chris davis 200]

http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/pms93_77_707-715.htm

In fact just look here. Much more interesting.

A medical analysis of the type of lock

chars
chris