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ok I was pointed in the direction of some srticles which I read, they made sense, the shit this guys spoke of was nothing new to me but obviously when I tried to explain why ground fighting in "street fights" wasnt really a good idea it would have started flame wars and long drawn out silly debates with "what if's?" everywhere.
For you guys who think ground fighting is a good way of fighting outside and on the street then I really think you should read this.
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Where doesn't submission fighting work?
While it is important to know how to keep your head when you go to the ground, let's start by saying that if groundfighting was all that effective, armies would lie down when they fought. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't carry weapons, instead they'd use submission holds and mounting positions to defeat the other army's soldiers.
Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally effective as its proponents would claim.*
To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).
1) In a one-on-one confrontation
2) In an open, but limited, space
3) On padded, clear surfaces
4) Without weapons
5) With rules
6) When people aren't trying to kill each other
In otherwords, in a sporting event.
We can also say that it works under *very* limited conditions in a so-called 'real' fight. But it has to be a very specific kind of confrontation. In fact, it could be termed "a friendly" fight. But you can't rely on an altercation being of this self-limiting, non-destructive type.
So let's look at the elements, or more specifically the issues that *will* undermine submission fighting's effectiveness.
Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you don't plan to face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self defense. Seldom will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making at least a token effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring it is a dangerous mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often be in the form of a bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground in a one-on-one contest with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility you are vulnerable to a second attack from above. There is also the issue -- in less reputable locations -- of spectators joining in and kicking you both ... just for the fun of it.
In a not so open space, e.g. furniture, curbs and other people - While the floor work itself may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects such as tables, chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you fall onto them -- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you there.
In a truly open space - Since "grappling" made it's name in the UFC, we need to look at the circumstances of that event. You will see in many of the take downs that the "victim" had run out of room when it came to backing up. He was trapped against the "ropes." It's amazing how hard it is to catch someone, much less take them down, who has lots of room to backpedal or dodge.
Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground" techniques are designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom do these conditions exist outside the dojo. A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a shattered bones. Hitting concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful -- often fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea," but that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter might not let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem as his. Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on. While you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on the floor of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone tackles you and you run into another person or tip over a table, those items can and will be knocked to the ground at the same speed as you.
Without weapons - This is even more dangerous misconception than assuming that you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play, it is no longer fighting, it's combat. The ground is the absolute *last* place you want to be with an armed opponent. Under those circumstances, all your so-called "advantage" turns against you because you cannot escape or avoid a weapon attack fast enough when you are on the ground.
Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or more specifically "no holds barred," many of the more nasty and brutal moves were banned. Until you have endured these moves, it is easy to assume that you can "tough them out." Experience proves differently. Many of these techniques are so savage that people don't believe others would stoop so low -- and are therefore unprepared to handle them. This utterly undermines the assertion of many grapplers that "Well, we can do them too!"
It isn't a matter of doing it "too" it is a matter of who does it first -- as many of these moves are fight stoppers.
Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood as "dominating" your opponent. It is used to subdue and force him to submit. In terms of "fighting" hat is a social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying to prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to kill him before he kills you. There are severe psychological differences in intent. And you fight totally differently. A fight with a drunken friend that you are trying to control (or prove he is out of line) is not the same as some evil bastard coming at you with intent to kill you. The same standards apply to the difference between fighting and self-defense.
If you know where groundfighting is effective, you can then deduce where it isn't safe -- and why
For you guys who think ground fighting is a good way of fighting outside and on the street then I really think you should read this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where doesn't submission fighting work?
While it is important to know how to keep your head when you go to the ground, let's start by saying that if groundfighting was all that effective, armies would lie down when they fought. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't carry weapons, instead they'd use submission holds and mounting positions to defeat the other army's soldiers.
Since that is not the case, we must assume that grappling is not as universally effective as its proponents would claim.*
To truly understand where submission fighting doesn't work, we must understand where it does work. (And I will admit works spectacularly).
1) In a one-on-one confrontation
2) In an open, but limited, space
3) On padded, clear surfaces
4) Without weapons
5) With rules
6) When people aren't trying to kill each other
In otherwords, in a sporting event.
We can also say that it works under *very* limited conditions in a so-called 'real' fight. But it has to be a very specific kind of confrontation. In fact, it could be termed "a friendly" fight. But you can't rely on an altercation being of this self-limiting, non-destructive type.
So let's look at the elements, or more specifically the issues that *will* undermine submission fighting's effectiveness.
Multiple opponents - Trouble most often runs in packs. If you don't plan to face multiple opponents, you are not really training for self defense. Seldom will a friend watch another friend be defeated without making at least a token effort to join help. That is human nature, and ignoring it is a dangerous mistake -- especially since a friend's help can often be in the form of a bottle or a rock. Since you are involved on the ground in a one-on-one contest with all your limbs engaged and limited mobility you are vulnerable to a second attack from above. There is also the issue -- in less reputable locations -- of spectators joining in and kicking you both ... just for the fun of it.
In a not so open space, e.g. furniture, curbs and other people - While the floor work itself may not take a lot of room, going down usually does. Objects such as tables, chairs and bystanders pose chances of serious injury if you fall onto them -- especially if you have someone else's body weight driving you there.
In a truly open space - Since "grappling" made it's name in the UFC, we need to look at the circumstances of that event. You will see in many of the take downs that the "victim" had run out of room when it came to backing up. He was trapped against the "ropes." It's amazing how hard it is to catch someone, much less take them down, who has lots of room to backpedal or dodge.
Asphalt, rocks, bottles, etc. - Many "going to the ground" techniques are designed to work on pads, mats and smooth floors. Seldom do these conditions exist outside the dojo. A slap fall on asphalt will not only tear up your hand, but it can result in a shattered bones. Hitting concrete with another person landing on top of you is a painful -- often fight stopping -- experience. Now you may think "that is the idea," but that is assuming that you are controlling the fall. A cagey fighter might not let you land on top of him, and that makes it as much your problem as his. Then there is the issue of bottles and glasses that you might land on. While you might at first think, "there aren't glasses/bottles/etc laying on the floor of the bar," that's under normal conditions, but if someone tackles you and you run into another person or tip over a table, those items can and will be knocked to the ground at the same speed as you.
Without weapons - This is even more dangerous misconception than assuming that you will only be fighting one person at a time. Once weapons come into play, it is no longer fighting, it's combat. The ground is the absolute *last* place you want to be with an armed opponent. Under those circumstances, all your so-called "advantage" turns against you because you cannot escape or avoid a weapon attack fast enough when you are on the ground.
Rules - Although the UFC was touted as "no rules," or more specifically "no holds barred," many of the more nasty and brutal moves were banned. Until you have endured these moves, it is easy to assume that you can "tough them out." Experience proves differently. Many of these techniques are so savage that people don't believe others would stoop so low -- and are therefore unprepared to handle them. This utterly undermines the assertion of many grapplers that "Well, we can do them too!"
It isn't a matter of doing it "too" it is a matter of who does it first -- as many of these moves are fight stoppers.
Not trying to kill each other - Grappling is probably best understood as "dominating" your opponent. It is used to subdue and force him to submit. In terms of "fighting" hat is a social function, it is not, however, combat. In combat, you are not trying to prove anything, you are not trying to force compliance. You are trying to kill him before he kills you. There are severe psychological differences in intent. And you fight totally differently. A fight with a drunken friend that you are trying to control (or prove he is out of line) is not the same as some evil bastard coming at you with intent to kill you. The same standards apply to the difference between fighting and self-defense.
If you know where groundfighting is effective, you can then deduce where it isn't safe -- and why
lol
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