What to look for when considering taking martial arts?Why MMA over Traditional Arts?

[IPON]

my point was that just is because it is a new term doesnt necessarly mean that it is restricted to new things.

Again I was just clarifying, I understood your point I knew you were using "MMA" generically.

Dork ...some words are so strange, like who think of them, and at the same time there is nothing more appropriate.....my boss is a dork!!! I just had to say that

[MuayThaiFighter]

I understand your point and just to clarify MMA is relatively new in name. Its birth was in the US and a result of the the early UFC. So MMA were are primarly focused on sport, but of cousre have street application. With in mind part of the definating realistically is a foundation in BJJ and a good standing striking art typically. MTF studies Pankration which can easily be considered the first MMA style (and true NHB fighting) this is combat wrestling and MT which still follows the basic defination strong stand-up strikling/ clinch skills with strong ground fighting.

Now regarding other styles, most styles have combined techniques from differnt arts but they would not be considered MMA Kano later added some karate to his judo but thaht is not MMA, If I add chin-na with X-fiughting style does not make it MMA, Sambo is a combination of russian style wrestling and judo it is not an MMA

just my $.02

I agree with this completely especially the part about MMA having street applications.

[MuayThaiFighter]

MTFighter: Yes you are correct i did kempo and much of what you said is true, although kenpo as with all arts has its McDojos, and they do have katas which in all honesty is useless.

Ipon: I dont care when the term was created after all the term jerk is a relativly new term but can be used to describe people in the 12th centuary. Yes most eastern martail arts have aspects that are similar because they are mixed on a small scale, but kenpo mixed to systems karate and jujustu. Sounds to me like it is a mixed martail art to me.

I personally would never do karate again for one I got sick of doing katas and besides after 12yrs. of one style it was time to try something new,however if I was going to do karate again it probably would be kenpo since they don't have as many katas as most schools at least I don 't think so,but I do know they have good street applications outside of the kata stuff unlike other karate styles.The thing is I won't do karate any more anyways so I don't have to worry about doing katas but as I said it is a personal choice.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Arts that you can test your techniques in training are the best for self defense. That includes wrestling, boxing, thaiboxing, and grappling.
Arts that train "deadly" strikes encourage people to live in a bubble and have not ever been proven to be effective for self defense.

[MuayThaiFighter]

Arts that you can test your techniques in training are the best for self defense. That includes wrestling, boxing, thaiboxing, and grappling.
Arts that train "deadly" strikes encourage people to live in a bubble and have not ever been proven to be effective for self defense.

You got that right,nicely put.

[chris davis 200]

I am not talking about guys that just hop from on martial arts to the next without staying one for a few years. When I say instructors who have done more then one martial arts I mean teachers who have done quite a few years in each art they had chosen.

My point was that it is not good enough to just jump from art to art - and many many defense instructors do this. I was just highlighting this as a word of caution.

MMA does not train in a set catalogue of techniques as you have stated. MMA are arts that instructors have spent many years in and put together or arts that they had learnt together.This however doesn't mean that things aren't always being added by instructors experience

If you look to a MMA gym in most cases the techniques will be based on MT, BJJ or similar, and thats about it. MMA's MAINLY train for their fighting format - this format favors the arts that most MMA's train in. I am not saying that this isn’t effective - it generally is very effective - but less so than most believe when talking about street.

Once again I agree guys who have gone from style to style picking up a few techniques there and there don't have much knowledge or skills as someone who has spent a few years in one art but those who have spent many years in each art they have done have way more experience then someone,who has spent many years in only one style and refuses to try other styles.

I 'technically' am a MMA i have trained in various systems to a high degree, BUT they have all been traditional systems not modern systems, as i have stated i have Not seen anything in modern combat systems that is not present in traditional systems - most of it has just been repackaged.

Here is where I disagree because very few martial artist styles have enough techniques in their style to produce good fighters outside of martial arts or at least outside of their own art, however some styles are more practical then others.

I know that there are some styles don’t have the necessary skills. But there are styles that have standup striking, ground fighting etc as part of their traditional syllabus. Ba gua would be one of these. I do agree that mixing knowledge and abilities in all ranges of combat are applicable. BUT I think that unless you are extremely gifted the ability to train in multiple systems and UNDERSTAND them is VERY very hard!!!!!!

Kali is effective against another guy with a similar weapon or someone with no weapon it won't work against all weapons.

Kali is also an unarmed system i think.

You claim that Traditional arts do not teach useless stances,okay then name one stance in karate that is useful and exactly how ? Then I'll give you my opinion.If you can convince me then I'll let you know if I agree or not.

OK! when you train in muay thai you learn a basic stance from which to execute your techniques. (at least i did). you learn how to move in that stance etc. In Karate you learn basic stances, you learn how to move from stance to stance. You learn stances deep, but when you apply them - you do them shallow - not unlike a muay thai stance. If you learned different then your teacher had little understanding of fighting with traditional karate. When fighting with karate - the stances are NOT long, elongated stances they are short mobile stances, the deep stances teach your body to work effectively in all stance ranges above the lowest denominator - they don’t teach you to fight at this level.

Traditional arts in general. This is impossible to say what stances are effective what are not. The variation in stance between the massive array of traditional Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Filipino fighting systems is too large to even compare them. Needless to say, there ARE strong stable stances for stand up grappling, there ARE extremely mobile stances for striking - you just haven’t experienced them based on your experience with Karate - NOT traditional systems as a whole.

I would like to know why you refer to martial artists who fight in a ring as a fighing in ring sport instead of fighting in a martial arts being done in the ring ? Just because we fight in a ring doesn't make us more of a sport then a martial arts.We are a full contact martial arts not a full contact ring sport we just happen to fight in a ring.

No problem. If we take Muay thai. You wear boxing gloves, you have regulations, rules, a set area to fight in, a ref, a medical support team, banned techniques, etc. NONE i repeat NONE of these are there in a street fight. Hence the relative application of ring sports to real street combat is not there to a point. Also by point scoring arts i am talking about full contact formats. All / most formats now have point scoring. Not talking about tappy tappy karate.

Why would you even bother to mention women in Muay Thai punching you wouldn't hurt you?,I'd certainly hope not or you'd be one wimpy guy since men are supposed to be naturally stronger then women.

My point exactly. I was responding to your comments on certain arts being more effective, my point was that it is dependant on your situation, gender, size etc.

You know traditionalist who can fight multiple attackers!!!!!!!!!!!! I really doubt that,so you're saying that if 5 or 20 guys jumped him at one time he'd survive ?

Multiple means above one and YES I HAVE defended myself against multiple assailants.

however I assumed you would have understood that by traditional I meant arts that do forms and don't change or not much anyways with the times,because to change would to be going against what their masters and masters before them had taught which in many arts is considered wrong.

So your NOT talking about traditional martial arts then!!! geez! you have a beef with this sort of KARATE school (as would i) - fine - but traditional arts are NOT all like this! My traditional Internal Chinese arts teacher wont let me call him anything other than his name - not sensei, no sifu just his name - doesn’t sound very much like what you outline above does it!

I know traditionalists train for multiple attackers but would that training really work on street? Absolutely not, because most if not all people will suddenly freeze in a real situation

Man o man you went to an appalling school!

Our multiple attack training starts with 2 people attacking simultaneously as they wish. It ends with 8 opponents attacking simultaneously as they wish.

the link below is basically a ba gua guy doing a multiple attack DRILL - it shows movement mainly, each slap is taken as a strike. The purpose here is not real combat - it is A DRILL.

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/video/m_su_multiple_attackers.WMV

There is a difference between training against multiple attackers and actually being able to apply it on street.

I agree.

Yes Muay Thai is a traditonal martial arts you are right,because it has a long history,however I assumed you would have understood that by traditional I meant arts that do forms and don't change or not much anyways with the times,because to change would to be going against what their masters and masters before them had taught which in many arts is considered wrong. I simply think it is wrong not to change the art if can be changed and improved on especially in these days.

Of course i wouldn’t have assumed this - i am a traditional artists - it is not true of any of the arts i practice - we learn a solid basics then move to fighting theory and principles, applying it - form, air punching based styles are a fairly modern phenomena.

Do you not believe that most fights end on the ground ?

in my professional experience as a doorman IMO NO they do not all end up on the ground - i would say 20 %. And i know that it would be suicide for me to go to ground when working - i would either get bottled, stabbed or have my head taken of by a boot!

Everything as seen in UFC would work on street,although not a real fight it is the next best thing to one and is as close as you will get to a real fight.

O .....K .... so you think rolling on the floor for a couple of minutes searching for an armbar or choke is a good street strategy! oh dear. fantasy land! I have said - many techniques are VERY applicable - but MANY are not applicable at all.

Not many,because it is mostly traditional weapons, I can't imagine a person walking the streets with some huge sword on his back or carrying nunchuks with him and no one carries tonfas or sais with them.I think the bo is realistic however because a piece of wood lying on street can be used in same way as a staff against just about any commonly used weapon on street accept against a gun of course.

Uhh? - what about knives?

The TMA's who train hard daily do become excellent fighters but only against their own style or other TMA's but won't last against someone trained in MMA.

I thought this was a self defense thread - not a vs. one - especially a sport format vs. no format thread!

It shows you have trained mostly TMA because of your lack of knowledge of MMA and saying it is not relevant to street combat.

It sounds like your lack of knowledge in TMAs has tainted your view also.

I have trained MT etc and have several MMA colleagues - nothing they have demonstrated has changed my opinion of my training - i have been effective in reality on the streets, in the clubs and pubs, this is more important to me than trying to prove something to a MMAist in the ring.

You're funny,I don't know anything about traditional arts!!!!!!!!!! No of course not I only spent 12yrs. doing it,sarcasm.

You have 12 yrs in Karate - Japanese karate at that - which was modified heavily. You tar all TMA's with the brush of one style - one school - i don’t think you have done ANY TMA's. From someone that has trained in many Traditional systems - all of which are flexible and applicable today.

Yes I am saying arts like Judo and Aikido are more applicable then arts before them except for MuayThai.

you really are funny - arts that preceded these arts had ALL the techniques contained within them BUT also had striking and more dangerous throwing methods - does this not make them more effective?

Just because an art has been around longer doesn't mean it is better.

Agreed and many traditional methods are now NOT applicable to combat - they are Martial ways and have different focuses than combat.

the same is with martial arts in the sense that some have improved and others like TMA's have stuck to tradition and are no longer any good, because they are so out dated.

But the starter motor is still there -

My point is that the reason that many traditional systems dont change is because they dont need to - arts like ba gua produce effective fluid, spontanious fighters with skill to deal with anything - they are not based in tradition but in combat - combat changes very little.

So age of something has nothing to do with the art.

But the assumption you have is that something is outdated or irrelevant if it has a history. Quite simply it isn’t.

As you have said - Age has nothing to do with the art.

Your view off KARATE may be accurate but so far you have NOT talked about TMA’s you have talked ABOUT KARATE.

my 2 cents.

[MuayThaiFighter]

My point was that it is not good enough to just jump from art to art - and many many defense instructors do this. I was just highlighting this as a word of caution.



If you look to a MMA gym in most cases the techniques will be based on MT, BJJ or similar, and thats about it. MMA's MAINLY train for their fighting format - this format favors the arts that most MMA's train in. I am not saying that this isn’t effective - it generally is very effective - but less so than most believe when talking about street.



I 'technically' am a MMA i have trained in various systems to a high degree, BUT they have all been traditional systems not modern systems, as i have stated i have Not seen anything in modern combat systems that is not present in traditional systems - most of it has just been repackaged.



I know that there are some styles don’t have the necessary skills. But there are styles that have standup striking, ground fighting etc as part of their traditional syllabus. Ba gua would be one of these. I do agree that mixing knowledge and abilities in all ranges of combat are applicable. BUT I think that unless you are extremely gifted the ability to train in multiple systems and UNDERSTAND them is VERY very hard!!!!!!

Kali is also an unarmed system i think.



OK! when you train in muay thai you learn a basic stance from which to execute your techniques. (at least i did). you learn how to move in that stance etc. In Karate you learn basic stances, you learn how to move from stance to stance. You learn stances deep, but when you apply them - you do them shallow - not unlike a muay thai stance. If you learned different then your teacher had little understanding of fighting with traditional karate. When fighting with karate - the stances are NOT long, elongated stances they are short mobile stances, the deep stances teach your body to work effectively in all stance ranges above the lowest denominator - they don’t teach you to fight at this level.

Traditional arts in general. This is impossible to say what stances are effective what are not. The variation in stance between the massive array of traditional Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Filipino fighting systems is too large to even compare them. Needless to say, there ARE strong stable stances for stand up grappling, there ARE extremely mobile stances for striking - you just haven’t experienced them based on your experience with Karate - NOT traditional systems as a whole.

No problem. If we take Muay thai. You wear boxing gloves, you have regulations, rules, a set area to fight in, a ref, a medical support team, banned techniques, etc. NONE i repeat NONE of these are there in a street fight. Hence the relative application of ring sports to real street combat is not there to a point. Also by point scoring arts i am talking about full contact formats. All / most formats now have point scoring. Not talking about tappy tappy karate.



My point exactly. I was responding to your comments on certain arts being more effective, my point was that it is dependant on your situation, gender, size etc.



Multiple means above one and YES I HAVE defended myself against multiple assailants.



So your NOT talking about traditional martial arts then!!! geez! you have a beef with this sort of KARATE school (as would i) - fine - but traditional arts are NOT all like this! My traditional Internal Chinese arts teacher wont let me call him anything other than his name - not sensei, no sifu just his name - doesn’t sound very much like what you outline above does it!




Man o man you went to an appalling school!

Our multiple attack training starts with 2 people attacking simultaneously as they wish. It ends with 8 opponents attacking simultaneously as they wish.

the link below is basically a ba gua guy doing a multiple attack DRILL - it shows movement mainly, each slap is taken as a strike. The purpose here is not real combat - it is A DRILL.

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/video/m_su_multiple_attackers.WMV

I agree.



Of course i wouldn’t have assumed this - i am a traditional artists - it is not true of any of the arts i practice - we learn a solid basics then move to fighting theory and principles, applying it - form, air punching based styles are a fairly modern phenomena.



in my professional experience as a doorman IMO NO they do not all end up on the ground - i would say 20 %. And i know that it would be suicide for me to go to ground when working - i would either get bottled, stabbed or have my head taken of by a boot!


O .....K .... so you think rolling on the floor for a couple of minutes searching for an armbar or choke is a good street strategy! oh dear. fantasy land! I have said - many techniques are VERY applicable - but MANY are not applicable at all.



Uhh? - what about knives?



I thought this was a self defense thread - not a vs. one - especially a sport format vs. no format thread!



It sounds like your lack of knowledge in TMAs has tainted your view also.

I have trained MT etc and have several MMA colleagues - nothing they have demonstrated has changed my opinion of my training - i have been effective in reality on the streets, in the clubs and pubs, this is more important to me than trying to prove something to a MMAist in the ring.



You have 12 yrs in Karate - Japanese karate at that - which was modified heavily. You tar all TMA's with the brush of one style - one school - i don’t think you have done ANY TMA's. From someone that has trained in many Traditional systems - all of which are flexible and applicable today.



you really are funny - arts that preceded these arts had ALL the techniques contained within them BUT also had striking and more dangerous throwing methods - does this not make them more effective?


Agreed and many traditional methods are now NOT applicable to combat - they are Martial ways and have different focuses than combat.



But the starter motor is still there -

My point is that the reason that many traditional systems dont change is because they dont need to - arts like ba gua produce effective fluid, spontanious fighters with skill to deal with anything - they are not based in tradition but in combat - combat changes very little.



But the assumption you have is that something is outdated or irrelevant if it has a history. Quite simply it isn’t.

As you have said - Age has nothing to do with the art.

Your view off KARATE may be accurate but so far you have NOT talked about TMA’s you have talked ABOUT KARATE.

my 2 cents.

I agree with some of what you say and disagree with other stuff. You are one of the first people in here that I have come across and know how to put up a good arguement.

It is true that MMA is made up of mostly MuayThai and BJJ or other grappling arts so I won't argue that because it wouldn't make sense to,however to say that it is less effective then most believe for street is simply not true.In fact it is more effective then people realize.

Of course you haven't seen anything effective in modern combat arts that aren't in traditional arts,because you've only done traditional arts.

MMA has nothing to do with traditional arts .

What is MMA ? MMA are arts that fight in ring,don't practice katas,they spar full contact and practice hard,tough drills on one another and as you stated before are usually arts like Muay Thai mixed with Grappling.

I'm not gifted and I have no problem with learning multiple styles. I still remember everything I learnt in Karate and able to train in Pankration now.

Actually kali is not an unarmed system it is very similar to arnis,both have to do with Phillipino Stick Fighting.

What stance exactly does Muay Thai have ? There are only two stances both of which are regular fighting stance and one of which is known as the most popular stance the south paw stance unless you want to include the switch steps we sometimes do before kicking.

Yes I do realize the moving from one stance to another as shown karate and the difference of practicing them low and high.I know the differences of the stances as I mentioned earlier I did karate for 12yrs.,doesn't mean agree with them though.

Actually no I it's not just karate I have a problem with I have a beef for all traditional schools, I feel they sell dreams and fantasy instead of reality and give fake self-confidence.

You don't have to believe that I have done TMA if you don't want to but the fact remains that I have. I lack knowledge in TMA !!!!!!!!!!!!! Funny I was thinking the same for you.

[chris davis 200]

I think we agre to disagree.

i have 16 years of experience in the traditional arts.

Of course you haven't seen anything effective in modern combat arts that aren't in traditional arts,because you've only done traditional arts.

This comment is not strickley true - i study theory of many systems, modern and old - just out of interest. As i have said i have never seen any combat theory, application principles or techniques that are NEW.

Actually no I it's not just karate I have a problem with I have a beef for all traditional schools, I feel they sell dreams and fantasy instead of reality and give fake self-confidence.

I cant help but disagree with this GROSS GENERALISATION!

not all traditional systems do kata, few punch the air (mainly karate and some shaolin systems), few have unrealistic stances, few are inefective.

The problem is that people see some guys in a mc dojo wearing a hakama doing CRAP and thing they are doing something traditional - They quite simply arnt.

But many traditional systems do FULL CONTACT fighting, Not in a ring (to rules) but as a part or realistic practice. Hsing I, ba gua and Tai chi all have San shou as part of their training. This is not a modern addition - it has been part of those styles for along time!

This view is what makes me believe you have only done Karate as a TMA - if you have done other systems - list them - i will let you know if they are TMA's or not.

Cheers
Chris

[cboog]

But how many times in a street fight are you gonna to get attacked by muay thai or bjj or karate guy. I know here in New Jersey if I get assaulted by a MA expert the MA expert is going to charged like he had a gun. Self Defense wise train in something that you can end a fight in seconds and get the hell out of there. For the Sport of MMA you know what to train in.

[MuayThaiFighter]

I think we agre to disagree.

i have 16 years of experience in the traditional arts.



This comment is not strickley true - i study theory of many systems, modern and old - just out of interest. As i have said i have never seen any combat theory, application principles or techniques that are NEW.



I cant help but disagree with this GROSS GENERALISATION!

not all traditional systems do kata, few punch the air (mainly karate and some shaolin systems), few have unrealistic stances, few are inefective.

The problem is that people see some guys in a mc dojo wearing a hakama doing CRAP and thing they are doing something traditional - They quite simply arnt.

But many traditional systems do FULL CONTACT fighting, Not in a ring (to rules) but as a part or realistic practice. Hsing I, ba gua and Tai chi all have San shou as part of their training. This is not a modern addition - it has been part of those styles for along time!

This view is what makes me believe you have only done Karate as a TMA - if you have done other systems - list them - i will let you know if they are TMA's or not.

Cheers
Chris

Is it really a generalization though? I don't think so,not from what I have seen.Most of the traditional arts I have seen do kata such as Karate,Kung fu,Tai chi,Ninjitsu,Tae Kwon Do, Kali,Arnis etc.yet you say few do,I disagree.Most style do have unrealistic stances and are unrealistic.Not too many arts teach realistic self-defense and many teach very little self-defense.

How many senseis actually know the bunkai to the katas they teach ?
Ans. Very few.

Usually styles that are learning crap,no offense to you guys who study traditional arts,are traditional arts.From all the traditional styles I have seen in tournaments, it sure didn't look like FULL CONTACT to me,especially when referee stops opponents each time one of them scores a point,this is point sparring.In full contact a fight isn't stopped each time a person makes contact with someone it goes to end unless someone gets seriously hurt and in full contact punches and kicks aren't pulled or snapped they go right through with the kicks and punches.

I have done only karate as TMA both Goju Ryu and Meibu Kan Goju.I now do Pankration.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I think we agre to disagree.

i have 16 years of experience in the traditional arts.



This comment is not strickley true - i study theory of many systems, modern and old - just out of interest. As i have said i have never seen any combat theory, application principles or techniques that are NEW.



I cant help but disagree with this GROSS GENERALISATION!

not all traditional systems do kata, few punch the air (mainly karate and some shaolin systems), few have unrealistic stances, few are inefective.

The problem is that people see some guys in a mc dojo wearing a hakama doing CRAP and thing they are doing something traditional - They quite simply arnt.

But many traditional systems do FULL CONTACT fighting, Not in a ring (to rules) but as a part or realistic practice. Hsing I, ba gua and Tai chi all have San shou as part of their training. This is not a modern addition - it has been part of those styles for along time!

This view is what makes me believe you have only done Karate as a TMA - if you have done other systems - list them - i will let you know if they are TMA's or not.

Cheers
Chris

Chris, you might train at the rare school that trains hard but 99.999% of karate schools are full of $hit. 99.999% of tkd and kung fu schools are full of it too. So, based on this, most well informed martial artists would not recommend those arts as being reliable for self defense.

A woman I work with was raving about her boyfriend, a tkd black belt, as if he had supernatural powers. She was telling me about all the amazing things he could do and how safe all his friends feel when they're with him. I innocently asked her what he would do if someone were to take him down and she said that it wouldn't be possible for someone to take him down unless they were also a tkd black belt. I said to ask him about it and just left it at that. This has nothing to do with what anyone here is talking about but I thought it was kind of funny. If I fight him and take him down, do I get awarded an instant black belt in tkd?

[Tom Yum]

WTF is bunkai? Anyways i have to overall agree with you although there are some effective traditional styles, they are few and far between.

You don't know what bunkai means and you've studied Japanese arts?

You'd figure someone who surrounds themselves in that style would know at least one phrase.

marugabi

[MuayThaiFighter]

Chris, you might train at the rare school that trains hard but 99.999% of karate schools are full of $hit. 99.999% of tkd and kung fu schools are full of it too. So, based on this, most well informed martial artists would not recommend those arts as being reliable for self defense.

A woman I work with was raving about her boyfriend, a tkd black belt, as if he had supernatural powers. She was telling me about all the amazing things he could do and how safe all his friends feel when they're with him. I innocently asked her what he would do if someone were to take him down and she said that it wouldn't be possible for someone to take him down unless they were also a tkd black belt. I said to ask him about it and just left it at that. This has nothing to do with what anyone here is talking about but I thought it was kind of funny. If I fight him and take him down, do I get awarded an instant black belt in tkd?

So So So true. Good example with TKD person too.

[chris davis 200]

A woman I work with was raving about her boyfriend, a tkd black belt, as if he had supernatural powers. She was telling me about all the amazing things he could do and how safe all his friends feel when they're with him. I innocently asked her what he would do if someone were to take him down and she said that it wouldn't be possible for someone to take him down unless they were also a tkd black belt. I said to ask him about it and just left it at that. This has nothing to do with what anyone here is talking about but I thought it was kind of funny. If I fight him and take him down, do I get awarded an instant black belt in tkd?

I find this hilarious - buut bearing in mind that TKD is a modern system based on Karate - which in many forms is also modern - i am not sure of what your trying to say - are you saying modern systems are shite?

Chris, you might train at the rare school that trains hard but 99.999% of karate schools are full of $hit. 99.999% of tkd and kung fu schools are full of it too. So, based on this, most well informed martial artists would not recommend those arts as being reliable for self defense.

Well maybe not 99.999 % but abmittedley a high figure claiming to do traditional systems have not got a clue (many / most are mc dojo's/ frauds) - and some other traditional systems do not have the main motive of self defence.

But to tar every TMA with one brush is ludecrous - I know extremely good fighters that are traditionalists - i know extremely poor fighters that train MT etc.

By saying TMA's are all useless you are basically saying that all Martial arts (including the beloved Muay Thai) are useless unless they have been 'created' (what a joke!) in very modern times ie after the advent of MMA competition. This is quite litterally stupid! Do you think that TMA systems, dont spar, dont have agressive attackers, dont deal with knife defence, dont deal with SIMULTANIOUS multiple attackers etc - if you think this then you have not encountered many TMAists.

I have beaten this to death now I think i will end it here.

I have my view based on real life street experience and working proffessionaly with modern stylists - saving many of their asses when they are bricking it. I know what i do works and what i do is old MA's what more need i say.

We agree to disagree - nothing wrong with that - I hope that i have given you some things to concider even if you dont agree.

below is a quote from the founder of the I chuan branch of Hsing I - A TRADITIONAL SYSTEM:-

1. "shadow boxing is an art of great profundity... the so called boxing patterns and methods, on the other hand, are only artificial flourishes which for the past 300 years have served as a means to make a living for those quack masters who act as bailiffs or entertainers with their deceitful tricks."

2. on hitting vital points - "people have regarded these points as something miraculous. in actual combat you can hardly get at your opponent let alone hit him on a vital point. If you have ability you only need strike on his chest or flanks to kill the opponent. There is no need to know the vital point position. "

3. on hsing-i - "originally there were no such patterns or routines called 'twelve forms'. everything was simple and direct"

4. on ba gua - "at first there was only the single and double palm. later those who knew nohing about its essence "developed" it by presumptuous fabrications into such sham as the 64 palm routine and the 72 leg routine."

5. The famous tai chi manual - "is elegantly written, but i am sorry to say that it contains lots of empty theories and little essence and has the defect of being too sweeping. "

6. master-disciple system - "has been praised as something excellentbut when practised in china even the best things turn out to be a farce with all kinds of scandals and corrupt practices. ... what counts is not how others address you but the spirit and feelng that exists between teacher and students... the holiest thing in the world is learning... the master-disciple system intensifies struggles between factions and schools.. it is for these reasons i advocate the abolishment of the master -disciple system "

7. "all branches of leraning are simple in form but complicated in meaning. those complicated in form seldom have deep essence."

This may give you something to think about regarding the attitudes of ALL TMA's as you put it!

He does not advocate forms at all, he did not agree with complicated methods, he did not think point hitting worked, he believed that shadow boxing was profoundley more benefitial than set routine work! etc etc.

As i say TMA's are not always what you think.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Chris Davis,
I didn't mean to tar EVERY traditional martial artist. But you agree with me that there are many, many, many more people out there who think that they are skillful traditional martial artists than there are people that are traditional martial artists. I haven't been to every karate school, so I can't say that every karate school is full of crap. I can say that every karate or tkd black belt that I've encountered so far is clueless. Once in a while I've run across a tough tma black belt, who also happens to be 6'3", 235 lbs.
I'm not the one tarring your art. You just have way too many charlatans practicing your art, teaching your art, and wearing advanced belts. They are tarring your art.
sincerely,
Mr. Miyagi