Who is the Father of Modern MMA

[danfaggella]

i thought that meadas stuff was not specifically designed for the street fight and when carlos and hulio learned it and got in fights themselves, they tweeked and eliminated things

[CKD]

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html On this page it is said that Maeda was recorded saying that he specialized in taryu shiai judo. Techniques specifically used against challengers from other schools. What has happened to this part of judo seems to be unknow but he typically closed the distanced with strikes, took a shot or got into the clinch, and then he would the take them down and submit them.

[Tant01]

The answer is....

.... looking at the last century and doing some light research, here are my thoughts (very brief of course).

When Kano was sending students to spread the gospel of Judo, Mitsuyo Maeda was chosen as one of the disciples. Before coming to Brazil, Maeda probably had hundreds of challenge matches ....The concept of the challenge matches were passed to the Gracies along with the Judo/Jujutsu and probably other techniques he picked up or refined........

I am just raising this because I thought I would be a good subject for discussion. So provide the rationale along with an answer.

Judo is a composite system of earlier techniques from various styles of Ju-Jutsu. It has atemi waza though relegated to kata it is a striking art. It is a seizing art, a throwing art and a grappling art. It has all the same "great" Jiu-jitsu submission holds and strangles, kicking and punching. It is the root form of modern BJJ/GJJ, Sambo and other styles. It has influenced much of the word and been incorporated into many military hand to hand combat arts from Krav Maga to the US Army and Marine Corps manuals of fighting.

And yet Kano Sensei is not on your list?

[mixwell]

Maeda did have some NHB fights before going to Brazil I believe so thats why I picked him over Helio Gracie.

[Sensei Saki]

I think Maeda did have some NHB fights before going to Brazil he or she believe so that is a lot of things.

[jules]

ippon,

Now when Carlos and HELIO go involved there was not need to "refinfe for street fighting" that's silly and a lot of hype.

not accordign to carlos's son carlinos

"...but it was my uncle Helio, who made great improvements in the desensive aspects of the art... Helio.. came up with new ways of controlling the opponent and developed new staregies fo the defensie aspecits ofJiu-jitsu. How to controll a bigger and stronger opponet became the main point of the defensive manuvers. This completely new defensive approach took the art to a higher level."
-Carlos Gracie Jr. "Grappling Masters", Pg 32.

[Hardball]

I am not sure if this question was asked/answered before (you guys probably know more than I).

I think all would agree that pankration, ultimately, was probably the first MMA as we now define it. However, looking at the last century and doing some light research, here are my thoughts (very brief of course).

When Kano was sending students to spread the gospel of Judo, Mitsuyo Maeda was chosen as one of the disciples. Before coming to Brazil, Maeda probably had hundreds of challenge matches from boxers to catch wrestlers. The concept of the challenge matches were passed to the Gracies along with the Judo/Jujutsu and probably other techniques he picked up or refined. The Gracies maintained this tradition of challenge matches which later became known as Vale Tudo (as an aside, the name Vale Tudo actually came from a reporter covering one of these street brawl/challenges.). The concept of Vale Tudo lead, obviously, to Rorion's brilliant business idea for the UFC (please everyone take a moment of silence for we shall never see anything like the early UFC again...damn wuss-politicians ). Now the concept of what is now known as MMA in the U.S. I believe had its genesis here, in the UFC, and probably like Vale Tudo the name "MMA" was coined by a reporter or marketing person.

Now I do realize that the term MMA has been used for about 12-15yrs, pankration was being revived, shootfight etc. So my question is who should be considered the Father of "Modern MMA".

I am just raising this because I thought I would be a good subject for discussion. So provide the rationale along with an answer.

I voted other. Other being Royce Gracie because of what he did in the Early UFC's. I couldn't vote for his dad, Helieo because he was the grandmaster and instructor but not an active participant in the MMA craze. I followed it since ufc 1, and brazillian jujitsu was all over Black Belt Magazine back in the early 90's. Everybody in the martial arts world was ranting and raving about brazillian jujitsu, now everybody has it figured out but I think Royce Gracie revolutionized mixed martial arts. Damn, the guy only weighed about 175-185 and was tougher than nails.

[Sensei Saki]

Interesting gossip:
said voted other.Which others?

I am glad to hear that you are Royce Gracie because of what he did in the Early UFC's I could not vote for his dad Helieo because he was the grandmaster and instructor but not an active participant in the MMA craze.Do you train with weapons?Colloquial expression. I have never heard about The guy only weighed about 175-185 and was tougher than nails.

[IPON]

Kano Sensei is not on your list?

I did think about Kano Sensei, but since the question was focused on the MMA format I didn't think he was appropriate. Kano combined/refined styles of jujutsu (generally a complete style by itself) and later incorporated karate, but the tournaments were mostly to show superiority of judo vs. jujutsu not all against styles per se as with MMA. Also, I belie there is a distinct with combination arts vs. what is considered MMA (philosophical). At least this was my original thought. I would not have a problem adding his name if I new how to change the poll

[IPON]

ippon, not accordign to carlos's son carlinos[/i]

Jules - my point was that they [Carlos and Helio] were already using this style in street fighting a la Maeda. I will say that I cannot disagree with the statement made by Carlinos, but it doesn't mean there were improvements strictly for street fighting. Also, you have to be careful when reading alot of the "Gracie Hype" alot of time there are strong implications of how much they actually "created" that is simply not true. Read Renzo's book, he discusses Helio's "creation" of BJJ which could be lifted from the same page of Kano' creation of judo (which came first the chicken or the egg).

Also as I have said many times BJJ is more Brasilian Judo (although I could understand not calling it BJ) I would challenge (and so should you) any BJJer regarding what techniques were "created by Helio vs what was already in judo. Now this gets confused, I am speaking of pre-war Judo which is what the Gracies were taught. The Judo of today is not complete so that is an issue of Judoka going back to their roots of the pure system.

Again, I am not taking anything away form the Gracies, I am just interested in the (historical) truth.

Sorry for the long winded response

[IPON]

Interestingly Carlos Gracie was not the only person Maeda taught. He also taught some other guy who claims he made no changes to the art and it is the exact same thing as bjj and the guy's students compete in the bjj tournaments often.

Yes I remember this was posted on the forum. I think you posted that if so can you re-post the link.

[Tant01]

Too true.

.....

Also, you have to be careful when reading alot of the "Gracie Hype" alot of time there are strong implications of how much they actually "created" that is simply not true. .....

....

Take this for instance:

"If someone points a gun at you, of course, you will be scared. But jiu-jutsu gives me the equivalent of a bullet proof shield. It protects me from head to toe, plus it gives me the ability to take a gun away."


Helio Gracie. via Doug Jeffrey. (From the April issue of GRAPPLING magazine)



Too funny...

[jules]

Jules - my point was that they [Carlos and Helio] were already using this style in street fighting a la Maeda.

yes and no, they only trained under maeda for about 2 years, thats not a long time even if you live in the gym.

Also as I have said many times BJJ is more Brasilian Judo (although I could understand not calling it BJ) I would challenge (and so should you) any BJJer regarding what techniques were "created by Helio vs what was already in judo. Now this gets confused, I am speaking of pre-war Judo which is what the Gracies were taught. The Judo of today is not complete so that is an issue of Judoka going back to their roots of the pure system.

BJJ or Gracie ryu jiu jitsu is not "brazilian judo" if anything it's a decendent of Fusen ryu jiu-jitsu. They fight like FR guys and have the same approach to combat like FR guys. Kano bribed/stole the groundgame from fusen ryu. And what happened? His own judo guys started to fight like fusen ryu fighters and started pulling guard. That's why he put in all these rules against pulling guard and slowly started limiting groundfighting. He saw his own students going away from "his" judo to the fusen ryu style of groundfighting and wanted his "mark" or influence to stay in judo. Maeda and the other kodokan guys who knew the importance of Fusen ryu didn't want to give up so they sort of created a "cult" within judo.

Again, I am not taking anything away form the Gracies, I am just interested in the (historical) truth.

BJJ was no more created by the gracies than Judo was so called created by Kano.

Sorry for the long winded response[/QUOTE]