Does Size Matter?

[Mr. Miyagi]

I read in an article about Kimura once that comparing Helio to Kimura was like comparing local talent to a world class talent. The author believed that the result of the match would have been the same even if you reversed their physical attributes.

[Shimora]

Mr Myagi that is interesting. According to Rorion, Helio was the number one BJJ guy in the world and Kimura was the number one JJJ guy in the world.
If what you read is true then this proves that JJJ is a superior style to BJJ.
I've been trying to get this through you guys heads for years. JJJ is the pure source, BJJ is the diluted source.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Kimura competed in judo tournaments and wrestling tournaments with the best in Japan. At that point, I would have to say that Japan had superiority in terms of quality grapplers and throwers. Everyone knew who Kimura was and Helio was a nobody at the time. The author of this article also mentioned that before fighting Kimura that Helio fought another judoka named Sato. Sato repeatedly threw Gracie several times in the match but he landed on the padded competition mat unscathed every time. Sato became frustrated and went to the ground with him following a throw, and here he was caught by a choke from Helio's guard. Kimura accepted the challenge from Helio following this fight. The author has seen both fights in their entirety and said that Kimura had a side mount on Helio with a tight headlock that made blood come out of Helio's ear. It appeared that Kimura was not trying his very best as he didn't want to embarrass the smaller man.
I think this article was in Martial Arts and Combat Sports about 6 mos. ago.
Of course every technique Helio learned existed in Japan before. What the hell, the Gracies learned from Maeda. I take everything Rorion says with a grain of salt. Helio "refined" the techniques and created Gracie jui jitsu is what he would have us believe, but that was already created. Helio practiced it and Rorion packaged it. Other guys like Carlson, Sperry, Rickson, de la Riva, and others have since refined it.
In interviews, Sakuraba has been asked about specific techniques he used against bjj fighters. After the Royce fight he was asked about why undressed Royce and he said that this was a technique that he had seen in an old karate book about how to deal with a dressed judoka but in this fight he didn't get to finish doing it. He insisted that he didn't mean to humiliate Royce and was actually trying a technique. He explains every unconventional move he does as something he learned. Conana, Royce, and Renzo, all bjj black belts, have had his back and been absolutely powerless in this position. Saku isn't just a freakish talent. He is a smart man who uses other resources in Japan to learn how to deal with bjj. If anyone is ready to make a video titled How to Beat Brazilian Juijitsu, it is him.

[Edited by Mr. Miyagi on 12-01-2000 at 08:04 AM]

[david a]

Does anyone have some experiences with this? Sparring, or working out with a smaller or larger opponent that was stronger or not stronger either way, that made a difference?
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Yes, all my sparring partners have significant weight differnce of at least 40 pounds on me, and it always ends up in a 50/50 chance of one of us tapping first(because we are all at about equal skill level). I have never had a problem rolling with these guys, although I admit it is a bit harder than rolling with guys my weight, because of less excersion(sp?). I hit the weights with these guys on a regular basis, and we are all about the same in strength.

By the way... sure the fights were "heavies against heavies"
but there was a great amount of weight difference between them, and that really is what the issue is here. I was just showing that just sheer size, isn't always a factor.

[GinSueDog]

Doesn't make sense...

David A,
So if you're all about the same in skill level, and have the same strength, but there forty pounds greater in weight...something just doesn't make sense there. Are they simply fat. In this case I would assume then all things are equal or maybe they are out of shape and you are less skilled? I have submitted a person about thirty-five pounds heavier then me in a real fight in my livingroom but I can say without a doubt I was more skilled then he. If he took six months of BJJ(he already has a year or so of high school wrestling) I think it would have been a different story. As it was I had a badly bruised rib and rug burn along my shoulders and back. Against someone of equal skill and greater size the odds are stacked against you, they will have reach, weight and the knowledge of how to use it against you. The only hope for a smaller person is to become more skilled and to force his opponent to fight in the area or range his opponent is the leased skilled in.

[david a]

strength doesn't automatically assume huge muscle. I seem to have a hard time gaining muscle but my strength seems to grow rapidly. One of my friends is totally the opposite. He gains huge size but can't keep up with me with lifts in the gym, in fact, it really irritates him. There are many light-weight weightlifters (even women)who can lift the same or more, than many men who are twice their size. So just because I am smaller, doesn't mean I am weaker.

[GinSueDog]

David A,
Forty pounds is still a very large size difference. I can understand a fifteen to twenty-five pound size difference with the individuals strength still being close but forty pounds is a different story. This can bring in other factors, maybe they were overweight so there endurance would be lower or they were actually weaker and playing off of strength. To say that size does not have an important factor I think is misleading, prehaps on the ground size has less of an advantage if the smaller individual has skill and experience, that I can understand. But in a contest of size and skill, the large more skilled opponent will normally win I think by the laws of nature if by anything at all.-ED

[david a]

Gunsuedog,

Thanks for replying. In some cases I suppose that a heavier individual may have an advantage in some regards, like "carrying his weight through a technique" or being more difficult to reverse, etc., but he also has some things to his disadvantage, like fatiquing earlier due to his mass he must carry, and speed decreases the more weight you carry(look at lightweight boxers speed compared to heavyweights). Of course these things are not gospel, because everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, but this seems to be the dividing line I see between my opponents and myself save for the strength comparison.

Finally, I am 5'4 at 160 lbs so naturally I am big for my size. My highschool teacher told me that I would never get heavier than 125-130 lbs. So I proved him wrong and put on 30 pounds of muscle "cuse I don't let no one tell me what I can't do". I was around 125 in grade nine. I am now 28 years old.

I hope this clears abit up.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Im 125lbs 5'6 but I hit the weights 4 times a week. ALL the grappling I learned was studying myself and drilling. Now to you guys it may be not effective at all. BUT most of my friends are 6'0 and up and are around the 180-200 plus range. They have NO experience in grappling. So I can beat them most of the time. I can tap then with an armbar or a choke because of my "self taught" grappling. But I get really tired and I have to conserve my energy alot.
Skill may overcome size, but you sure get damned tired from it.





[Edited by YeLLa-TiGeR on 12-01-2000 at 09:28 PM]

[Ronin]

YeLLa:

The problem for you would be when they started hitting you on the ground. It is hard to apply subs when you are getting smacked.

Still, you are doing well. Just don't get a false sense of confidence.

[Chad W. Getz]

Thanks guys. There are alot of factors that come into play and it is a multi-faceted question. Great post and opinions.

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

Dude, no kidding! Those guys hit hard. They WILL put me on my ass if they hit me! Thank god those guys are not into fighting and are too nice to start shit. My friend and I did some rolling with strikes once....I was on the bottom of course and he was on top but I had a guard on him. I held him really tight, but he began launching all these rib shots on my body, so I let go all of a sudden and tried for an elbow to the head. Then BAM! At the same time we both go for elbows. The result? Double KO! It hurt at the time for both of us, but it was fun and a real eye opener. Those shot strikes to the body are harder than they look on the UFCs. I dont understand how they can take those.

[Ronin]

YeLLa:

Because those dudes are NOT HUMAN.

Later.

[Chad W. Getz]

Adrenaline.

[L3FTH00K]

This question can be so easily answered. Look with all things being equal = stamina, experience, power etc... SIZE DOES MATTER! Think of it this way, if an 180lb SAKURABA went up against a 205 pound SAKURABA who would win? Of course the larger Sakuraba. Now you cant come up with a response like "well the larger Sak must be slower since he is larger." But remember ALL THINGS MUST BE EQUAL BUT SIZE.