BJJ limitations

[spetnatz]

You just have to look at the bjj scoring system to notice that bjj doesn´t emphasize standup grapling at all. A perfect throw that would score an ippon in judo and would destroy an oponent on the street, is only awarded two points in bjj, one of the lowest scores for any move in a bjj tournament.

BJJ considers throws as just a mean to take the fight to the ground, where groundfighting techniques can then be used to win the fight. They don´t recognize the massive destructive potential of a well executed throw, that can end a fight by itself without the need for groundfighting. That´s probably why they only afford it two points in competition which is too low a score to produce much good quality standup action in tournaments.

[Thai Bri]

OK, limitations of BJJ.

1. No awareness/avoidance and general personal safety training
2. No "fence" knowledge
3. No pre emptive strike
4. No effective striking
5. No chance at all against more than one opponent
6. Limited strategy (get him opponent before winning)
7. No appreciation and use of physical surroundings
8. No psychological techniques


Thats 8 so far. Don't get me wrong. BJJ is a great great art. Their Black Belts are world class people. Don't ask me to take one on!

But a person WITH the above training will have a better chance of survival than any BJJ expert who has not.

[BadgerFu57]

OK, limitations of BJJ.

1. No awareness/avoidance and general personal safety training
2. No "fence" knowledge
3. No pre emptive strike
4. No effective striking
5. No chance at all against more than one opponent
6. Limited strategy (get him opponent before winning)
7. No appreciation and use of physical surroundings
8. No psychological techniques


Thats 8 so far. Don't get me wrong. BJJ is a great great art. Their Black Belts are world class people. Don't ask me to take one on!

But a person WITH the above training will have a better chance of survival than any BJJ expert who has not.

Thai does have some good points. I will not detract from BJJ's effectiveness or the quality of BJJ players.... it is just moving more towards the sport world and leaning away from self-defense nowadays. The concept of "pulling guard" in a street encounter seems ridicolous to me, although it is a common tactic in competitions.

Remedy: Make pulling guard penalized. A takedown is worth two points, perhaps the person pulling guard should automatically give his opponent one point or something to reduce the frequency of this happening.

Also, lots of classes no longer teach the traditional Jiu-Jitsu defenses or philosophies because they don't apply to sport competition. Yes, Sport competition is great. It is a great way to test skill. It is important. But I don't think self-defense and street smarts should be thrown out all-together just because they don't work in NHB fights.

I know BJJ guys say to run if there is more than one guy in a fight (generally). But what happens if you are in a life or death situation and you can't run? What happens if you don't have 6 minutes to work a submission? I am sure those techniques and strategies are in the jiu-jitsu vaults. They just are less common nowadays because they don't win Pan-Ams. But everyone should remember, the Gracies made up BJJ from Judo/TJJ. It was modified for one-on-one streetfights without time limits for a small statured man. Just things to think about.

But hey, it win's cage matches so it must be able to save my life from a gang of thugs!

(BJJ is my foremost art, so I don't mean to take away any from it, but self-defense is self-defense. Same with thai boxing. One of the best thai boxers recently got shot. He could have kicked the guys ass in a one-on-one in a cage. The problem was, it was on the street, and the guy had a gun. From what I understand, the guy stole his car, the Thai boxer chased him down, and got shot.)

[gracilva]

OK, limitations of BJJ.

1. No awareness/avoidance and general personal safety training
2. No "fence" knowledge
3. No pre emptive strike
4. No effective striking
5. No chance at all against more than one opponent
6. Limited strategy (get him opponent before winning)
7. No appreciation and use of physical surroundings
8. No psychological techniques


Thats 8 so far. Don't get me wrong. BJJ is a great great art. Their Black Belts are world class people. Don't ask me to take one on!

But a person WITH the above training will have a better chance of survival than any BJJ expert who has not.

I agree, that's why i'm so glad i train where i do (or did, having a break)
The instuctor there makes everyone do shootfighting for 6 months or so
before going into the intermediate Bjj class.
He is a big fan of G.T "The Fence".
Teaches adrenaline control.
Pre fight, post fight,post clinch strategies and stresses that you must
crosstrain.
That's why i'm not interested in the "sport Bjj" side of things.

[CKD]

Same with thai boxing. One of the best thai boxers recently got shot. He could have kicked the guys ass in a one-on-one in a cage. The problem was, it was on the street, and the guy had a gun. From what I understand, the guy stole his car, the Thai boxer chased him down, and got shot.)

No one would have been able to disarm that guy. He was up in his car when he shot the dude so there was no way he could shoot him. No defense is going to garuntee you will be gun proof. I doubt anyone could disarm that guy from the position he was in because nearly all gun disarms do not work form that position. The creator of kokkor kempo was shot. Mcyoung was suppossedly had these things done along with dimitri I am pretty sure the person that created the fence got shot and they all study "reality" defenses and all were just lucky to not be in a position were disarms could not work. Sorry but I like to rant.

[rambo]

BJJ considers throws as just a mean to take the fight to the ground, where groundfighting techniques can then be used to win the fight. They don´t recognize the massive destructive potential of a well executed throw, that can end a fight by itself without the need for groundfighting. That´s probably why they only afford it two points in competition which is too low a score to produce much good quality standup action in tournaments.

This can be due to the fact that bjj is a NHB oriented art.NHB tournaments are disputed on a relatively soft floor which eliminates much of the destructive potential of throws. I agree that increasing the score for throws would lead to a better level of standup fighting in tournaments because competitors spend more time perfecting moves wich score higher.Just two points don´t provide enough incentive for them to perfect throws the way they should.

[El Mastero]

Because as everyone knows, movies are the best place to get information about reality.

You know it buddy.

However if you want the ultimate you should become a Ninja. Remember only a Ninja can kill a Ninja.

You are correct again. I have become a proficient Ninja master. It's partly due to studying Sho Kosugi and American Ninja films. They've taught me the art of invisibility but I got most of my unarmed combat skills from the Ninja Turtle movies. Now I'm a wicked Ninja.

[El Mastero]

Hahahahahahahaha.......oh...your not joking. thats sad. capoeira is now considered a dance art not a martial art.
the reason- the original practitioneers designed it to look like a dance. They would tape knives on their feet to make it deadly. without the knives it is just a dance again.

Nothing can be further from the truth. Capoeira is the deadliest art in the world. Those sweet aerial kicks, handstands and acrobatic maneuvres are deadly. It may be a dance but a deadly dance. A dance of death. Just rent/buy "Only the Strong" and you'll see what I mean.

Oh and I wanted to keep this little nugget of info for myself to become the ultimate warrior but I feel I should share it with you. There is an art that was developed in the mean streets of Brazil that is very deady on it's own. But it was developed by the old ones to combine the long range weapons of Capoeira with the ground fighting of BJJ. The art specialises in the area of the clinch. It is the glue that binds the deadly art of Capoeira and BJJ. Like Capoeira it is a martial art that is hidden within a dance. The art is so deadly that it is forbidden. It is the "Lambada", the forbidden [martial] dance.

The three arts combined are known as "Las tres muertes" [the three deaths]. Once you combine the three arts you will become a highly skilled, higly dangerous, and very deadly warrior. A force to be reckoned with and a damn good dancer I might add. So go out there my friend and learn the tri-arts of Brazil. You too can be a deadly mestre.

[duma20012001]

my two cents

I feel every art has their limitations. Like most people say your best self defense is a deployable weapon or escape.

To be honest lots of these so called arts that do teach stand up against multi attack need a reality check; why?
Because most of these blackbelt can't even defend themselves verse one attacker

This is why gracie jiu jitsu long time ago always destroyed any challanger in kun fu etc. We all seen the videos in where the so called multi-attacker expert goes against a ONE ground fighter and gets his butt handed to him.

Everything has limitations, every streetfight can turn out bad because of multiple attacks, weapons , lucky shots etc.

I like many have train in jiu jitsu for sometime but if face against muti attackers my self defense is my track speed. But for personal saftey of someone trying to overwhelmed u grappling in anyform can't be beat cause we are all use to full resistance against our technique training.

It sad if i read on any self defense forums about , let say lady blackbelts trying to fight off their attacker instead of trying to retreat....

my whole point is under any given situation we can all come up with time in where no art beside running will win and even then u could still get shot.

Just train hard in jiu jitsu just for fun

[rambo]

[QUOTE=duma20012001]I feel every art has their limitations. Like most people say your best self defense is a deployable weapon or escape.

Every art has limitations but its stylists must try to eliminate them as much as possible. BJJ has limitations in standup grappling but its people don´t seem interested in effectively adressing them within their own system. They seem to prefer crosstraining in judo or wrestling.

[TylerDurden]

What's wrong with cross training? With everything that's already in BJJ it would be foolish to try and add stand up techniques to it. Why not just learn what you need from somewhere else and use it? If you think someone can just create some mixed Muay Thai/Judo/BJJ style, that's stupid. You need a lifetime of study in each of them to have that level of knowledge.

[spetnatz]

Traditional japanese jiu jitsu has it all, striking, throwing and groundfighting.

[TylerDurden]

Sure it doesn't...

TJJ is not as good as BJJ on the ground. Not as good as Judo at throws. And not nearly as good as Muay Thai at striking. So what do you get? You get to be mediocre at a bunch of things?

[chris davis 200]

interesting,

i would say that it is Better than Judo at throws! I have done both. although i agree about MT and BJJ but look at what they are LACKING! big style!

The exact same throws found in Judo (which comes DIRECTLEY from trad Jap JJ) are found in Traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu. I have done both quite extensivley! Judo was developed as a sport / excersize - so alot of throws were taken out - none were added as far as i know. so where do you get this better throws business???

MT is Severly lacking in grappling & groundwork, BJJ is severly lacking in Stand up and throwing, Judo is severly lacking in striking. Jap JJ practices them all - hence a more complete combat method!

I think that maybe its cause of the less intense training you often see in traditional methods.

train with the intensity of a Pro MT fighter in Jap JJ and you will be a hugely effective fighter! Train once a week at the local dojo for an hour and you will be shite! same is true of most arts!

In Jap JJ you get to be as good at throws & groundwork as Judo Ka and good at striking - not the best but - good! i would take JJ over BJJ any day - for the simple reason that i dont want to do combat 'SPORTS'.

chris

[TylerDurden]

Have you ever tried to throw a Judoka? It's not the number of throws, its how effective they are and how you practice them. The whole reason Judo was created was to have something you could practice full speed safely.

So go ahead and look down on 'sports' but when you tangle with one of them remember how much practice time they get at 100% when they are choking you out.