BJJ limitations

[spetnatz]

[QUOTE=duma20012001]Just wondering by saying bjj is a imcomplete art.....did u mean for self defense purposes or being incomplete compared to other forms of grappling such as wrestling? I just want to know is there a such thing as an complete art? I'm not trying to bash u or anything so please dont get defensive.

All I´m saying is that BJJ standup grapling could be much improved, which would make it a far more efective grapling art in any kind of fighting. A system´s practicioners should try to always be improving it, and standup grapling is an area where there is ample room for improvement in BJJ. If this was done BJJ would become a more complete art compared to what it is today.This is possible but it is not a path that BJJ people seem interested in following. Take Judo, it emphasizes standup grapling but has an extensive groundfighting curriculum. BJJ could do the same continuing to emphasize groundfighting but adding an extensive standup grapling curriculum. This would improve the art and would help to bring more people to it, since most people are not atracted by a system that teaches only ground techniques.

[TylerDurden]

The TJJ schools I have seen are the same ones Thai Bri mentioned. Maybe there is a more effective version being taught elsewhere, but I have never seen it.

I train with a guy who took Aikido for ten years, he changed to BJJ for a reason. Aikidko and HapKiDo seem to focus on the TJJ small locks. No full speed practice. Punch, freeze, get joint locked. No realism at all.

So lets say there are TJJ schools out there who do what chris said. They still will not through as well as Judo simply by emphasis, or work as well on the ground as BJJ.

And I would say Judo is asport based, but you say that like its a negative. When the ability to compete, to go all out against a resisting opponent is a strength. I am never going to go to national's, or the olympics, but taking on someone full speed makes you better. It makes theory into reflex, and that's what you need on the street.

[duma20012001]

Im not trying to start some jiu jitsu can kick butt. Im a big fan of all types of grappling form simply base on the fact that in grappling the technique that we use is against full resisting oposition. I still waiting to see a person take on 5 guys like in the bruce lee movies with any art lol.....

when it comes to gunz and street gangs there is no art to fill the void but escape.....that with anything.......

I do agree jiu jitsu has a void in stand up grappling but then again a karate blackbelt cant start teaching his students triangles and arm bars from the guard and still call it karate.....

so limitations on the street jiu jitsu gets no wavier...just like any other art 20 years of training will get u your butt kick ver a gun or gangs. but this goes for stand up kick boxing etc.....


as far as how jiu jitsu would do against other arts just go to some of these fight sited and download video etc and look at the early days of the ufc.........

to me people started to question jiu jitsu cause of guys suddenly losing...people tend to forget it was because of the new martial art called crosstraining.

1.So if your looking to go into professional NHB with only jiu jitsu look to get your butt kicked....

2. on the street if givin a fair fight against a normal guy or a straight blackbelt in like akido or something dont worry u will win easily. Jiu jitsu proves
its pure form against any other pure form so many times...

its the crosstrainer, gunz, and gangs u have to worry about. I like training sport jiu jitsu but if i wanna learn how to punch i will take up another art cause u can really mod an art form.....if im punching then really thats not jiu jitsu lol

[Bushido]

2. on the street if givin a fair fight against a normal guy or a straight blackbelt in like akido or something dont worry u will win easily. Jiu jitsu proves
its pure form against any other pure form so many times...

You're right, that is the point. We are talking about street self-defense.

•Muay Thai or Hard styles of Karate (seidokaikan, kyokushin, ect) has a limitation, they are only stand up.

• BJJ has a limitation, it is ALMOST only ground.

But on the street, BJJ will win 99% of the time. Look in the first UFC where you had a kick-boxer vs a karate guy: even if the BOTH are SPECIALIZED in stand-up striking, it ALWAYS ended on the ground. If someone is practicing striking, it is hard to keep the fight standing.

BJJ takedown/throws are MORE than enough to bring someone down on the street. Imagine, in Gracie in Action, you had TRAINED martial artist from various styles, and they ALL lost to BJJ. And they were trained. Imagine an «untrained» guy on the street.

The only «problem» I see with BJJ on the street is not the outcome of a fight, it is the surrounding, the people around...

[CKD]

I did some research and found bjj does have some strikes
BJJ STRIKES
1. Punches: Bjj has 4 boxing punches within it curriculum. The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.
2. Kicks: Bjj has 3 kicks, the fronts thrusting/stomping kick often used to close the distance and is often used by Rickson Gracie. The side kick, often aimed at the knee, and the last kick of bjj is the thai roundhouse kick.
3. Elbows and knees: BJJ heavily emphasized albows and knees since there is less possibility of breaking your hands
4. BJJ emphasizes hitting while in the dominant position(such as the mount or front headlock clinch) mostly but the one mentioned above are what are used in the free movement phase(when there is no grip) for bjj.
Takedowns: Pretty much all basic judo and wrestling takedowns are in bjj as well as standing submissions. This post was to show that bjj has some striking in it. Ussually striking is done in what is called vale tudo training bjjers. I would say bjj's standup is good enouph to handle most fights. Most bjj schools teach strikes. Those are all the basic free-movement strikes of BrazilianJJ. My sources were several sites, Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie and BJJ Thoery and technique.

[gracilva]

I did some research and found bjj does have some strikes
BJJ STRIKES
1. Punches: Bjj has 4 boxing punches within it curriculum. The jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.
2. Kicks: Bjj has 3 kicks, the fronts thrusting/stomping kick often used to close the distance and is often used by Rickson Gracie. The side kick, often aimed at the knee, and the last kick of bjj is the thai roundhouse kick.
3. Elbows and knees: BJJ heavily emphasized albows and knees since there is less possibility of breaking your hands
4. BJJ emphasizes hitting while in the dominant position(such as the mount or front headlock clinch) mostly but the one mentioned above are what are used in the free movement phase(when there is no grip) for bjj.
Takedowns: Pretty much all basic judo and wrestling takedowns are in bjj as well as standing submissions. This post was to show that bjj has some striking in it. Ussually striking is done in what is called vale tudo training bjjers. I would say bjj's standup is good enouph to handle most fights. Most bjj schools teach strikes. Those are all the basic free-movement strikes of BrazilianJJ. My sources were several sites, Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie and BJJ Thoery and technique.

Ahh, at last an intelligent post, BJJ is not just ground fighting, good post.

[Bushido]

I agree, totally right.

[duma20012001]

come on everyone.I train jiu jitsu so i know.... although their is a lil striking its not a striking art...

When i train with news guys that have blackbelt or experience in other standing striking arts i alway ask if they know like the basic positions for the ground etc..

they always give me the same yeah i do and how they do a lil bit of groundwork in their previous art but once u roll with them u see they really know nothing.


95 percent of the training is ground work in jiu jitsu..........unless your training at some NHB style jiu jitsu camp.


but like i said previously it gets the job done

[Serrada]

Good post CKD for not having been a partitions of BJJ. I have trained in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu for several years and the curriculum includes an extensive standing arsenal and standing strategies. If fact most counters and self defense in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu start in the standing position. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu strategies are different than a standing only striking art. In a standing only striking art one must enter, make contact, and exchange techniques with a point to get into striking distance, strike and control it safely. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu does the same but with a point to stay at a safe distance. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has strong emphasis on ground work for the reason of a smaller opponent evening the playing field by going to the ground. I have done extensive kicking, elbow striking, knee striking etc. in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. In Gracie Jiu-Jitsu there is also extensive training on cooping with your surroundings. Oh, and in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu one will throw an opponent head first into concrete if the situations deems it necessary and it is not an objective always to go to the ground and roll. Anyway, that is my two cents training in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

[CKD]

More on BJJ striking

Just another thing on bjj striking. The combinations in BJJ striking are shorter than say boxing because you can be taken down so you want to have enouph time to defend it. Ussually striking is used to close the distance but in the two gracie jiu jitsu books I have it says it is also used when you fear multiple opponents. An interesting fact is that Rickson Gracie has done demonstrations against two opponents in which he was in a small room and they were blocking the only door and he has beat them successfully. BJJ advocates striking in a dominant posisiton such as the mounted punch, or elbows from the rear clinch. BJJ believes you should try to gain a dominant position before striking since it is risky to engage in striking against a bigger stronger opponent and you also will recieve less damage, but although striking is ussaully is done in the grappling range it does include free movement phase striking as I have shown in my previous post. An interesting note is that Carlos Gracie was a boxer. BJJ is an evolving art. I do not think thai roundhouses were in its cuuriculum until they saw thai boxers in Brazil or fought with them and leg locks were also another thing that changed.

[spetnatz]

I agree that BJJ is an evolving art, and that´s why it´s important to identify its shortcomings so that it can evolve in the right direction. I think that standup grapling is the area where it needs to evolve the most in order to improve as a grapling system. I don´t mention standup striking because BJJ is primarily a grapling art and so limitations in striking technique are to be expected. Limitations in grapling technique however, should be eliminated so that it can be permanently evolving towards a perfect grapling system. In what direction do those of you who disagree that BJJ has a pressing need to evolve in standup grapling think it should evolve?

[cboog]

For self defense, learn simple techniques, some BJJ some kickboxing little Shredder, dirty fighting, get your track speed up, START USING COMMON SENSE, and everthing should be alright. In the streets the code is do you. I wonder at some of the schools that you train at, whatever style you study, do you pad up and say have 2 or 3 people go at 1 person at the same time all out, not one at a time I mean group attack blitzing style on one person.

[rambo]

Good post CKD for not having been a partitions of BJJ. I have trained in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu for several years and the curriculum includes an extensive standing arsenal and standing strategies. If fact most counters and self defense in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu start in the standing position. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu strategies are different than a standing only striking art. In a standing only striking art one must enter, make contact, and exchange techniques with a point to get into striking distance, strike and control it safely. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu does the same but with a point to stay at a safe distance. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has strong emphasis on ground work for the reason of a smaller opponent evening the playing field by going to the ground. I have done extensive kicking, elbow striking, knee striking etc. in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. In Gracie Jiu-Jitsu there is also extensive training on cooping with your surroundings. Oh, and in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu one will throw an opponent head first into concrete if the situations deems it necessary and it is not an objective always to go to the ground and roll. Anyway, that is my two cents training in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

If you have trained for several years you know there are plenty of people in Gracie jj that would find it difficult to throw an opponent head first into concrete, due to lack of throwing practice.

[Serrada]

In my experience of Gracie JJ most of the standing self defense is done by throwing the opponent to the ground. Of Helio’s 54 lessons of self defense, 33% start from the standing position and include throwing. I was taught both from the ground and standing. Examples are the standing head lock front and rear, the bear hug front and rear, most grabs, etc. so I have no idea what you are talking about Grace JJ stylist not being able to throw. Mind you, Judo has more throws than Gracie JJ, but Gracie JJ has it’s share.

[platinum_angel]

i've been doing bjj for about a year now and the way i think about is that bjj is the leg of the body. thai boxing is the other leg. and the body for wight training and nutrition. the mind for understanding why you do martial arts and mentallity- adreneline response training.

of coarse bjj is an imcomplete system, but thats what its supposed to be. thats why it focuses on the ground. of coarse thai boxing is imcomplete but whats its supposed to be. now jkd is a whole notha story