BJJ limitations

[spetnatz]

In my experience of Gracie JJ most of the standing self defense is done by throwing the opponent to the ground. Of Helio’s 54 lessons of self defense, 33% start from the standing position and include throwing. I was taught both from the ground and standing. Examples are the standing head lock front and rear, the bear hug front and rear, most grabs, etc. so I have no idea what you are talking about Grace JJ stylist not being able to throw. Mind you, Judo has more throws than Gracie JJ, but Gracie JJ has it’s share.

Anyone who attends a BJJ tournament notices that the throwing skill shown by most fighters isn´t very good.That´s one of the reasons many people don´t have BJJ people throwing skills in a very high regard. By not giving the due value to throws in competition and awarding only two points for a perfect throw in a tournament (a throw that would score an ippon in JUDO), the BJJ federation doesn´t seem to recognize the relevance of throws in fighting and helps to foster the idea that throws are not considered a very important technique in BJJ.

[guy incognito]

(a throw that would score an ippon in JUDO)
i wouldnt mind scoring on ippon grrrrrr!

[shootodog]

Sure it doesn't...

TJJ is not as good as BJJ on the ground. Not as good as Judo at throws. And not nearly as good as Muay Thai at striking. So what do you get? You get to be mediocre at a bunch of things?

ouch! easy with that statement. not all jj ryus are mediocre.

[Bushido]

Good post CKD for not having been a partitions of BJJ. I have trained in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu for several years and the curriculum includes an extensive standing arsenal and standing strategies. If fact most counters and self defense in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu start in the standing position. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu strategies are different than a standing only striking art. In a standing only striking art one must enter, make contact, and exchange techniques with a point to get into striking distance, strike and control it safely. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu does the same but with a point to stay at a safe distance. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has strong emphasis on ground work for the reason of a smaller opponent evening the playing field by going to the ground. I have done extensive kicking, elbow striking, knee striking etc. in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. In Gracie Jiu-Jitsu there is also extensive training on cooping with your surroundings. Oh, and in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu one will throw an opponent head first into concrete if the situations deems it necessary and it is not an objective always to go to the ground and roll. Anyway, that is my two cents training in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

Excellent post. I think there is a BIG difference between Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (ok-ok, I know GJJ is BJJ). GJJ employ alot of stand-up self-defense and often end up in a position they call "the base" (looks like kiba-dachi: a stand-up, low, knee bend, position) so they are not on the ground or they use often the "knee on stomach" position, that is a compromise between standing and ground. GJJ have ALOT of self-defense element, witch BJJ not have since it is sport-oriented.

MY POINT IS (lol): do not judge the potential of jiujitsu on the streets by the techniques you see in sport BJJ (or mma bjj) but by the essence of it...Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

[Creeper]

do not judge the potential of jiujitsu on the streets by the techniques you see in sport BJJ (or mma bjj) but by the essence of it...Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

I couldn't agree more. If you attend a Machado school or some other Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school you will learn techniques specific to competition with a lot of grabbing of the Gi. They are in it for the Sport aspect only. In fact, most of the time when you spar on open mat you start on your knees.

I train with Reylson Gracie and he is 100% focused on street fighting/defense. He teaches the Gracie System the way his father (Carlos Sr.) intended it. There is no grabbing of the Gi since people on the street won't be wearing one. You never start on your knees. It's all about real-world fighting. For fun we sometimes "unofficially" get together with other BJJ people from other schools and it's amazing what a difference it makes when your mind is focused on a street mentality (always be ready for surprise, never know what to expect) vs. these guys from the Sport-like BJJ schools who's minds are conditioned on rules and guidelines and can't hold there own outside the Sport world. If that's what they want out of it, fine, but I'm in it for the mental and physical conditioning of my body in all aspects of my life, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

If you walk into some of the best Jiu-Jitsu schools in the world today (I am not going to debate which ones are good on this thread) you will find people that can stand up fight, more than likely they have trained in Muay Thai & Boxing. Thats for sure @ our Academy. We also have wrestlers, Judo Black Belts & more Black Belts in other styles than I would like to count. I would like to think our Academy is very well rounded. We have proven this in competition as well, just as many other Jiu-Jitsu schools have. I think fighting is always evolving, so is sport Jiu-Jitsu, the two are very different, just like a class that focuses on self-defense not sport @ a good Jiu-Jitsu Academy.

[CKD]

BJJ Triangle

BJJ training is like a triangle. There is Sport bjj(gi and no gi), self defense, and vale tudo training. bjj vale tudo training is the one with the strikes I mentioned before and bjj self defense includes pre-emptive strikes and weapon defense. If you are going to a good bjj school they will teach the whole bjj triangle. Depending on whom the school is affilliated with they will ussually emphasize different things, example if you go to a Rickson affiliate they will emphasize vale tudo and self defense so you would have striking more often, or if you went to a Renzo affilate you would learn a lot more bjj striking techniques than say a machado school since renzo schools emphasize the vale tudo especially the strike part, or if you check out a Machado school you would learn a lot of sport bjj. Of course all these people teach the whole bjj triangle but they tend to emphasize on part.(If you are not learning the full bjj triangle you are probaly at a mcdojo). If you watch some matches you will see what I mean. Watch Renzo he does more bjj strikes and his schools teach that more than others.

[Alvaro Lobato]

Going back to the basics

Guys, it all started with the question: "What are the weak points in BJJ ?". I would like to return to it.

The general problem I find in Martial Arts foruns is, most of the times, people tend to compare martial arts. It doesn´t work like this. MMA championships are there to prove. You get cross trainning, which is something that started just a few years ago, and keep developping your weak areas.

Even so, MMA fights are not REAL fights. As we all know, hair pulling, eye gouging, biting and so on are very effective resources.

So please, let´s stop this comparisson that lead us nowhere.

This said, I remember it was mentionned that BJJ has thrown problems. I think it is generally true. In brazilian sport championships, is ocurring a phenomenal increase in judo skills, due to the leverage it is causing in those competitions. That is, Judo experienced fighters are doing better in BJJ competitions.

Due to MMA fights, BJJ has develloped an outstanding level of free-style that is now being used in trainning. On the other hand, I am not sure (or better, I do not know) if other martial arts are also learning from the grappling experience shown in last years presentation.

The truth is that all arts must learn from others, but intending to have a COMPLETE STYLE, is very difficult to achieve. For instance, the hardness of karate with the total flexible BJJ.

Nevertheless, we may conclude that BJJ may (and I think will) have to increase its abilities in punching, kicking and knee fighting, in order to transform itself in the new multi-functional fight style of this decade.

[Alvaro Lobato]

Is Aikido that Ineffective ?

Someone mentionned Aikido as an easy opponent.

I do have some questions to pose:

1. What is real fight ? It depends on so many circuntances - just to mention a few:
- Local the fight will take place.
- The size of the opponent.
- The number of opponents.
- Other resources like gun, knive, chairs and so on.
2. What is your objective in this combat ? To kill, injure, scare, just send a message ?
3. How far are you willing to go ?

Aikido allows to control (much like in BJJ) the ammount of damage you may inflict. This is a very important point in todays society where everyone has access to a shotgun, which is the ultimate answer to finish a fight.

Aikido is also a great way to prepare you for a combat, in special with lower ranks or no-ranks martial artists, which represents most of the population. Generally you do not want to destroy, but merely avoid the problem. Simple finger or joint locks generally will do it.

On the other hand, I do agree that most of martial arts have more hands-on trainning than Aikido, and that may do a difference. But a straight black belt in Aikido generally have trainned or practiced some other forms of fight (at least, the people I know). Moreover, Aikido is difficult to learn, but one of the great aspects of this art is the sence of timing and space you get and, therefore, use it during an encounter with other martial artist.

Once I practiced with a black belt karate expert. Although I was really scared of the fists and kicks, as soon as I enter his circle of reach, I easily dominated him with simple aikido joint and bbj techniques. In fact his fist was so fragile that I was worried that I could permanently damage it.

The big difference is really the individual and its flexibility to learn from others. I belive the martial art we study is just the first step to progress from there and to be humble enough to understand the limitations, imposed by any of the avaiable methods.

[spetnatz]

( In brazilian sport championships, is ocurring a phenomenal increase in judo skills, due to the leverage it is causing in those competitions. That is, Judo experienced fighters are doing better in BJJ competition.)

Does that mean the amount and quality of standup grapling action in Brazilian BJJ championships is now much higher than it used to be? Is it still a long way from the level of standup grapling at Brazilian Judo tournaments?

[Alvaro Lobato]

BJJ stand-up technique

((Does that mean the amount and quality of standup grapling action in Brazilian BJJ championships is now much higher than it used to be? Is it still a long way from the level of standup grapling at Brazilian Judo tournaments?))

Well, I wouldn´t say it is already MUCH HIGHER, but it is definitelly getting clear to BJJ fighters that stand-up techniques are not less important than ground techniques. We must be very carefult when we make those "general" comments, because there has always been good stand-up grapplesrs in BJJ. What I mean is that there is a slight change in the culture that only ground techniques solve it all.

It is funny to see the cultural change. I am 40 now and I was born in Rio de Janeiro. Between 7 and 14 years old I practiced Judo. At that time, we already knew that the "real action" was gracie jiu-jitsu and not Judo. In the following years this image got even more radical. Judo is ONLY sport, not a fighting system. This is changing now, as people discover that there are many Judo techniques that may help a "real fighter".

As the always obvious conclusion, we must have cross-trainning in order to develop most of our skills.

[rambo]

Is the relation between jiu jitsu and judo people good or bad in Brazil? Do Judo people in Brazil train more ground graplling than in other countries due to jiu jitsu influence?

[Alvaro Lobato]

Judo and Jiu-Jitus relationship in Brazil

First of all let me tell you I am no specialist nor in BJJ nor in Judo, although I have trainned in both arts.

As in every relationship, there are people that recognize the importance of judo for bjj. On the other hand, I feel that the success of bjj, may have caused a little jealousy by judo teachers, moreover because a lot of students have moved to bjj dojos, looking to be the next royce gracie.

Funny enough, part of the bjj´s success splashed to judo which is now, again, recognized as a pratical martial art, eventhough it has more links to sports competition. We must remember that 20 years ago, Karate, Muai Thai and other more Bruce Lee-like arts were the hit in Brazil. Movies play a great role in defining the fashion-style of the time.

Let me also remember that Judo has always been very good in Brazil. You just have to look for medals in Olimpics to confirm it.

Therefore, answering your question, I think that the relation between Judo and Bjj could be a lot better - maybe there could be even only one rule and one championship in the future, which I doubt very much. It is then much more a problem of politics than a problem of personnal relationship or beliefs in a specific art.

For me it is difficult to understand this, since I like to fight and every martial art is welcome to increase my abilities. I like very much grappling standing up in a match and, should it go to the ground, it is great to "chess" bjj´s various techniques.

Crosstraining is the answer to it. This week I will start practicing some kick-boxing, since may skills in this area are a disaster. Bear in mind that my main trainning is Aikido.

Now a question to everyone. What is happening in MMA world ? I see much less technique fights and more strong fighters ever. Has anyone a clue what will happen in the future ?

[rambo]

Since you mainly train in aikido, do you think a jiu jitsu fighter could benefit from crosstraining in aikido's throws? Would they work in a jiu jitsu competition? Are there many people in Brazil training both in aikido and jiu jitsu?

[Alvaro Lobato]

BJJ and Aikido - together ?

This is an interesting question.

When I think of efficient martial art as a personnal deffense technique, I tend to prefer some boxing mixed with a few Krav-Maga techniques and that's it. If you have a little more patiance, you could learn some ground techniques and some kicks.

The reason for such is that you take a long time to learn more complicated techniques. Then comes the question: what is the best martial art or what is the more suitable martial art for me ?

Well, I practice Aikido because:

1. It is relaxing (I work very hard in my own business - which is crazy anywhere but worse in a 3rd world countrie like Brazil).
2. You can control the level of destruction you may inflict in your opponent. This means you do not have to punch him or break his arm nor put him to sleep in a choking.
3. Aikido help me to balance my energy.
4. I like the different grappling techniques, which are very subtle. For instance, Krav-Maga has some torsion techniques thar resembles Aikido; but in Aikido they are done more efficiently. (Please, that doesn't mean that Aikido is better than Krav-Maga !).

Bearing this in mind, I will answer the question: "do you think a jiu jitsu fighter could benefit from crosstraining in aikido's throws? ".

I like crosstrainning anyway it comes, but you have to decide what YOU like and what YOU are searching. I exposed what I think for myself, you will have to find your own way.

For instance, if you are looking for competition, I don't think Aikido will help you. In fact, whenerver I used Aikido techniques in BJJ trainning, people complained that this is not a valid thing in that dojo.

If you are looking for self defense, I think kicks, punches and some torsion techniques (as in Krav-Maga) will complete your art in a better way.

If you are just like me, you will probably want to experiment a bit of everything, remembering that Aikido take years for you to dominate the basics.

Finally, I do not know many people trainning both Aikido and BJJ. The main reason I find is that those are, generally completally different kind of people. Do not forget that, for instance, Aikido has no competition.