A question for those who believe in God.

[Sleevesleep]

I am struggling with this concept so I need your help.

What I don't get is this: If you do good things for the Devil, then why will he do some the completely backwards and undemocratic as sentence you to a life of misery, pain and suffering? Wouldn't it be in his best interest to mantain followers by simply rewarding them when they die, instead of doing what most Christian people say he will do, which is punish them for eternity.

Once the word gets out that he is not exactly rewarding you for a life of sin, do you really believe that he is going to keep a large following?

And also, another thing I don't understand is, if you are going to burn in hell for eternity wouldn't you grow use to the pain after a while? Wouldn't you eventually become numb with the feeling of burning flesh, or otherwise wouldn't you simply burn out after a certain period of time?

I mean, how long can one person burn for?

There are just so many questions that have been left unanswered, and I need them answered.

[Guest]

First of all evil forces (demonic) might provide some benefit in this life but it is a temporary thing at best. Evil always ends in misery. Since the devil has no independent eternal power, he will not be punishing people after this life. He, himself, will be destroyed and have no power or influence in eternity. His power is here and now and it is a grand display of little substance, an illusion, a deception. Eternal judgement belongs to God as well as our disposition after death. The notion of an eternal torture chamber (hell) is a false idea. Hell, a temporary place, where people suffer for unrepented sins, comes to an end at the ressurection. Any God that would create human beings with the knowledge that he would be torturing many if not most of them for eternity would be a demented psychotic. I assure you, He is a kind, loving Father who cares for His children (us) and ultimatly has a plan of happiness for us. He will not, however, tolerate evil, sinful acts that hurt others without punishment. It's just that the punishment will come to an end, and when it does, we will be happy with what He will provide for us in eternity. The better course is to seek His Will, repent of sinful behavior as you ask for His forgiveness, and develop Godly attrubutes in this life. That way you can avoid any suffering in hell, as I've defined it and be immediately prepared for all the good He has prepared for the next stage of our existence. I've also heard the He has a soft spot for good hearted BJJ practitioners.

[Gargoyle]

I am struggling with this concept so I need your help.

Even the most devout believer struggles.

What I don't get is this: If you do good things for the Devil, then why will he do some the completely backwards and undemocratic as sentence you to a life of misery, pain and suffering? Wouldn't it be in his best interest to mantain followers by simply rewarding them when they die, instead of doing what most Christian people say he will do, which is punish them for eternity.

Your use of the devil in lieu of god makes me suspect this post as a troll; nonetheless, I'll respond.

You want to live forever, and so do I. Sadly, it ain't in the cards and so we experience the most jolting reality every man must face - his own mortality, and those of all his loved ones.

The notion of an eternal punishment is absolutely absurd - the construct of a mind absolutely devoid of anything humane or sensible. Create a sentient defect and cast it into eternal damnation for the defects you created, knowing the choices it would make. There is no sense or justice or compassion in such a scenario. It, flat out, can't be true...so long as you believe in a just deity.

Once the word gets out that he is not exactly rewarding you for a life of sin, do you really believe that he is going to keep a large following?

Hmmm...are you talking about the devil? That anthropomorphic creation of the human mind to encapsulate the cause of human misery? Only the most steadfast, idiotic of the rebelious would cling to the rope, the end of which is a load stone that's pulling the grippers into the ocean.

And also, another thing I don't understand is, if you are going to burn in hell for eternity wouldn't you grow use to the pain after a while? Wouldn't you eventually become numb with the feeling of burning flesh, or otherwise wouldn't you simply burn out after a certain period of time?

I mean, how long can one person burn for?



Burning alive is one of the three worst ways to die. The other is impaling, the third is being buried alive. But pain is not something experienced by the body. Pain lives only by virtue of the brain.

The reality of burning is that the body will fizzle out eventually. In fact, a very neat way to murder someone in the middle of his family room is to set him on fire while unconscious. The fat of the body will act as a fallow candle, kindling until nothing is left but charcoal and bones. This cannot last for eternity. It's physically impossible.

There are just so many questions that have been left unanswered, and I need them answered.

Hope I've answered some of your obviously deeply felt religious concerns...

[Masala]

lol
Gargoyle,
I have a problem with the "Candle Wick" theory. Namely, when they creamate people they put them into an incredibly hot oven for hours, burning the body with direct exposure to open flame. After hours of this there are still the remaining bones which cannot be burned completely and must in fact get pulverised in another machine, which gives you the ash (though it is really bone dust) that they put in the Urn. Now, if a creamatoriums ovens cannot get hot enough to destroy the bones, how is a human body that is slowly burning in it's own fat in the middle of the living room, going to completely destroy the bones?

I don't believe that the candle Wick theory has properly explained "spontaneous human combustion".

[judo guy]

What I struggle with is how could people attempt to explain or discredit the supernatural based on natural laws? Sounds pretty stupid to me. If God exists, he is most obviously a supernatural entity that is not limited by the laws of nature that guide souls such as ourselves. How could anyone waste their time trying to explain or understand the miracles that are entailed in the Old and New Testament? I think that is why it is called faith. Faith has no basis in science or even rational thought (the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God).

But even if one witnessed an open miracle (supernatural act) there is no guarentee that would even convince a person of the existence of God. As the prophet said, "though you might grind a fool like a pestle with a mortar, his folly will not depart from him."

According to Paul, you don't even have a choice in the matter regarding belief in God (the illusion of free will). He states clearly in Romans "Therefore he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." If Paul is correct, there is nothing that anyone could say or do that could convince you of the existence of God.

So I guess the thing to do is accept the fact that you won't ever believe in God. Go on with your life, die and see if anything happens afterward. If nothing happens I guess you died being right. Good for you.

[EJ]

Ugghh.... I don't know why I bother but....

God gave us free will. That is why good and evil happen in our universe.

I believe that Hell is a state where you "exist" without the presence of God or hope... you merely "are" in an animal-like state without any "knowledge" that He exists.

Crap... I know this is a waste of my time.

[Gargoyle]

kindling until nothing is left but charcoal and bones

Never said the bones would disappear...

[Tony10]

Zzzzzzzzz.

You forgot the part about the "gay agenda."

[fascistfury]

i am no expert on the subject, but i do have a couple of things to say:

1. not everyone wants to live forever...i personally look forward to the day when i can leave this f*cked up place.

2. regarding all the God and devil stuff...this is not a subject that is subject to the natural laws...you must have faith.

[PassiveGuy]

EJ, I completly agree with you. I also think that there is no religeon tells the truth about God, there is no Christian god, no Muslim god, no Buddist god, ext...
Only one creative force that inspires men to live happy lives, living a satanic life is hell in its own, only masacists would find a life of pain and sick rituals.

my $.02

[Sleevesleep]

Gargoyle, I want to personally thank you for turning my life around. Your post allowed a bit of light to come crashing through the stain glass panels of my heart. In Roman times such light was considered divine, and holy, but I now know that it represents something much more profound and moving to me.

I was an atheist before I made this post, I can safely say that from the thoughts you have articulated so precisely, so movingly, I have thrust my new found faith towards Satan.

Until someone can state in a completely convincing manner why woshipping the devil will not allow me to live a rewarding life after death, then I must make the most careful, rational decision I possibly can.

Thank you all, and please continue to discuss, I think we are all finding out just how complex, and serious this whole debate can be.

[Sleevesleep]

EJ, I must apologize, I just remembered your post giving a reason why it would not benefit me to become a member of Satan's Republican par... I mean demonic party.

But you stated that we exist somewhat as an animal, and we have no consciousness of God's existence in hell. Well what I wanted to know is if that is true, what is so inherently wrong with that? I mean, is it not rational to believe the saying that states that the closer we get to unconsciousness, the closer we get to happiness? So we have no awarence of God, but am I not I still capable of being happy not knowing that I had an opportunity to be with God in Heaven?

Damn, see it was all going so well, now I have to think about this.

Ok, I really am feeling guilty here, and I know I've spent much too much time on this subject, but I want to ask one last question that will help me come to terms with the many options I have for worship.

If God has the power to kill and save, then why does he allow infants with defects, and crippingly illness to be born, especially in a country like America where nobody cares about health care for young children? We care about banning abortion, but not about providing healthcare for a child that was forced to be born.

Like for instance, why does he let crack babies be born, even though they will most surely die a short period of time thereafter? He has the ability to save, and the ability to kill, but why does he choose to abandon such power in these instances?

How come when someone dies, or is accidentally killed somehow people are able to say that it was just their time, or that God saw it fit to take them in that moment?

Should we really prosecute murderers for killing people, because in reality they were just doing God's work. It was their time to die right?

Oh man, I just hope I am able to figure all of this out before I die.

[david a]

To all:

The concept of choice demands that we believe in a hell. Without it there is no choice. Think about it. Without choice, heaven wouldn't be heaven; heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their will, which would be torture worse than hell. Imagine, spending your lifetime voluntarily distancing yourself from God, only to be unvoluntarily dragged into His presence for all eternity. This would rob us of our freedom of choice and dignity by being forced into heaven against our will.
Everyone wants free will but noone wants hell, yet if there is either one, there must be the other. Without eternal seperation, the very nature of heaven is polluted. Evil is contageous, and must be quarantined. Also, without hell, the wrongs of Hitler's holocaust(eg.) will never be righted.

As I said before on another post- God is not a cosmic rapist who forces his love on us, either is He a cosmic "puppeteer" who forces people to love Him. Without choice, love would be meaningless. Common sense dictates that a God of love and justice does not arbitrarily rub out the crowning jewels of his creation. God doesn't do this. He graciously provides us the freedom to choose between redemption and rebelion. It would be horrible to think that God would give us free will and then annialate us for our choices.
Hate to break it to you guys but the Bible says that God is not unjust, but that "He is the Judge of all the earth who will do right" and " a just God wishing that none should perish"
If there is no hell, we do not need a Savior. If this is true- Christ suffered the cummulative sufferings of the world on the cross for nothing. No hell- no salvation- no salvation, no sacrifice.

Finally, the fire of hell is a figure of speech, of unquenching torture. The bible says also that hell is darkness. If this is so, how can fire be there since it sheds light?

[Sleevesleep]

davida, you know what, you're right, it's just silly to believe that hell consists of flames that will kindle your body forever. I mean, yeah, you're right, that has got to be just a figure of speech.

And you know what else, it's just silly to believe that there is man hiding up in the sky, beyond the clouds, in a hazy and mystical realm of virtue, and one whom rewards us for good things and punishes us for bad ones.

I've finally decided that Christianity is just not for me, and yet I still have a desire to live forever, and am now going to look much more closely at Eastern religions.

Thank all of you for taking the time to help me sort out such metaphysical questions.

[david a]

If God has the power to kill and save, then why does he allow infants with defects, and crippingly illness to be born, especially in a country like America where nobody cares about health care for young children? We care about banning abortion, but not about providing healthcare for a child that was forced to be born.

Like for instance, why does he let crack babies be born, even though they will most surely die a short period of time thereafter? He has the ability to save, and the ability to kill, but why does he choose to abandon such power in these instances?

How come when someone dies, or is accidentally killed somehow people are able to say that it was just their time, or that God saw it fit to take them in that moment?
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Are you suggesting God has done all this???
These are all consequences of our rebelion. This is what the heart of Naturalism is all about and what america is all about!

For a child to die is not the worse thing for that child.
That child that dies, we as Christians believe, will be protected and in the loving arms of the Creator of all things in its new healthy incorruptable body forever distanced from the evil and corruption that has been wrought from the human race.
Remember that our time on earth is short compared to infinity with or without God.

God is all knowing and all powerful, so to suggest that He did not know if someones premature death was not their time is unreasonable because He knows the beginning and the end.

Hope this helps.