A question for those who believe in God.

[Sleevesleep]

A child NOT being born is not the worst thing that could happen to a child.

The worst thing that could happen to a child is to have it be born with a crippingly illness that either allows it to experience a life full of pain and suffering, or even a short period of pain and suffering before it is transported from its "defective" human vessel to amcuh more "pure" one.

And no, I was actually suggesting that if there was indeed a God (no chance in hell) then he is aware of all of this, and is thus a despicable, irresponsible occurrence.

Anyhow, after a bit of research I have also decided to abandon my search for an Eastern Religion deity, and have finally elected to go with Greek Mythology.

I don't care what the scholars say, it has everything a rational man could desire out of a religion.

Think about it, what makes more sense to you: God the omnipotent, grandfatherly figure, or Zeus, the powerful warrior who creates lightneing by tossing the actual bolts with his hands?

[david a]

Sleevesleep,

Remember that even in eastern religions there is a reference to levels of punishment (for eg. Karma) for sins acted out in your lifetime.

The differnce between Christianity and eastern religions is that with E.R's you never know if you are saved. The common distinctions between good and evil have been blurred. That is why, as you have correctly stated before- (summed up) there is caos in America. This is because through the realm of Naturalism(which is that man is creator and dictator of good and evil) Eastern religions have beciome politically correct and popular in Western thought.

Lastly, In my opinion, Christianity gives us hope. We can know, without a doubt that we are forgiven. That is the differnce between other religions. God tells us through his Word that it is a gift. We don't have to earn it. Eastern religions say you have to work for salvation, but don't give you any assurance of it! God says, here is my gift- all you have to do is reach out and take it and it's yours.
All he asks is that you have faith to believe He can give it to you- and that my friend, is proven on the cross.

If your willing to give Eastern religion a try, at least be open to what Christianity really has to offer as well. I'll be more than willing to help answer your questions if your willing to listen. Thanks.

[david a]

Sleevesleep,

Are you conceding that suffering must disprove God's existence?

Let me ask you this.
If there is no God why is there so much good?
If there is a God, why is there so much evil or suffering?

My point is this- If there is no God, where did we get the standard of goodness by which we judge suffering as evil?
If you are saying that horrible suffering isn't what ought to be- it means that you have a notion of what ought to be- and this notion corresponds to something real which is in reality a Supreme Good- another name for God.

It is significant that most objections to the existence of God from the problem of suffering come from outside observers who are quite comfortable, whereas those who are acually suffering are often stronger believers in God by their suffering. If you look at China for example, it has a large following of Christianity in the last century, and alot of this is due to their suffering. And God knows just what they are going through.

One last thought. Do you know where the word excruciating came from? The Greek word for this is Excruciatos which means- Out of the cross.

[Sleevesleep]

>>My point is this- If there is no God, where did we get the standard of goodness by which we judge suffering as evil?<<

Because as human beings each of us experiences pain and suffering. We know what it is like to suffer, therefore we empathize with that suffering and deem it evil.

From that we deduce that it is wrong to feel pain and suffering, or inflict it onto others.

Virtue is a standard created by man in order to supress man's inherent desire for selfishness. Societies could not function unless there were rules of conduct.

Virtue was formed out of necessity, not for any unspoken realm of good and evil.

>>If you are saying that horrible suffering isn't what ought to be- it means that you have a notion of what ought to be- and this notion corresponds to something real which is in reality a Supreme Good-another name for God.<<

No suffering is inevitable, and I accept it based on human terms and natural, inevitable terms. It is not an entity, but whatever we deem as unacceptable. In many cases it is a relative feeling.

When it comes to a powerful being, I see no reason for suffering, or at the very least no reason for suffering inflicted upon the innocent.

In fact that is the guiding light beghind Chrisitanity, you sin you suffer, until you repent. But as we know this does not always happen that way.

Sometimes if you do something considered good you suffer.

>>It is significant that most objections to the existence of God from the problem of suffering come from outside observers who are quite comfortable, whereas those who are acually suffering are often stronger believers in God by their suffering.<<

That it is not true, there are many people who become skeptical because of their suffering. And for those who become believers because of their suffering, they obviously do it out of fear and desperation.

Yes christianity gives hope, but rarely does it ever follow through with it, it only teases and taunts.

>>If you look at China for example, it has a large following of Christianity in the last century, and alot of this is due to their suffering. And God knows just what they are going through.<<

Well, when Government fails we tend to turn to the next biggest myth: God

Religion and Nationalism, the two greatest evils.

>>One last thought. Do you know where the word excruciating camefrom? The Greek word for this is Excruciatos which means- Out of the cross.<<

Well, I've decided that Greek Mythology is not for me after all, and have chosen to worship myself, whom I do feel knows better than anyone else what it is troubling me, and just how to fix it.

Now if you will excuse me I now must go pray in front of a mirror.

[Rob B]

F U C K Off Sleeve

I can't take this, David you honestly are a good guy who holds true to his beliefs. Come on, can't you see what this guy is doing.

Sleeve, you're a self-righteous pontificating little twit, grow up.

[Triangle]

Did you know Buddhism is a NON-theistic religion? Buddha is just a guy who achieved enlightenment during his lifetime. Seems like it stresses individual actions like accepting the 4 Noble Truths and following the 8 fold path as your "job" during this lifetime. Sure, some have elevated Buddha to a diety but its more like the Buddha-mind (or something) inside of all of us.

Any of you asian forum brothers wanna take a crack at this? Sounds good to me. BTW, there isn't a devil....LOL. Oh wait! Maybe that means HE'S GOT ME!!!! I"M GOING TO BURN!

[Cleatus Ledbetter]

There is one true God. Jesus Christ the Son of God. If you have doubts; there is a book out that has all we need to know about life and God. You could call it a users manuel for life. It is known as the Holy Bible.(Please don't be one of the people who claims the Bible contradicts itself. It doesn't. I know; I have actually read the Bible.)

It is easy to say you don't believe in God. It gives you permission to act like a jackass and not have to feel guilty about it. You know, things like getting drunk or strung out, fornicating, lying, stealing, cursing, etc... I could right a novel on the topic but I will spare you guys the pain.

Just remember: There are no atheist in a foxhole.

In Christ's love
Cleatus "The Christian" Ledbetter

[The Colonie Crusher]

Uhhhhh, actually Cleatus there are over 250 contradictions in the bible. If you don't beleive me, check this out:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

[Ryu (non-working password]

This is all a troll everyone...

Glad I'm not posting here much anymore. Same stuff said, no one understands. I'm with Judo Guy. Just move on.

Eastern Religion is not without "God", salvation, etc... (I would know all my friends are Buddhist, Shinto, etc)

Buddhism has as many sects as Christianity. Some forms believe in "God" others attain that "nirvana" is the God experience. Buddhism is not really an atheist religion. Not in the way you think anyway...

later people,

Ryu

[Triangle]

Ryu, never said it was an atheist religion, but it doesnt fall neatly into the mono-theistic majority (around here anyway). Just adding to the nice, respectful, neighborly thread here.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Sleeve, I got a great idea!!

In order to get rid of all this confusion you need to do what Joe Manco states in many of his posts (good ole Joe Manco)

Kill yourself immediately.

[Ryu (non-working password]

Triangle, ah I see. Yes you are right then.


I'm so tired from college life these days that I'm getting a bit mean spirited. I guess it's no longer a neighborly thread now that I have said my piece. LOL

Ryu

[Ronin]

Get back to work Ryu!!!

[Ryu (non-working password]

LOL!
Let me borrow your sig!


Okay okay...

post-modern thought, and arguments against relativism......


I need some coffee...

Ryu

[Gargoyle]

Sleevesleep :

I want to see you when your heart skips a beat ... and two and you throw your face in a mirror - staring at yourself

and your heart starts beating fast again.

die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...People die...

The people who joke about god have no need of god.
The people who pray to god need god, and therefore are drowning, and will grasp anything that keeps them afloat, even a corpse.

I want to see what you're reaching for when you're drowning.