catch as catch can wrestling or bjj

[JaredExtreme]

GRACIEAUSTIN, the real members on this forum know your skills and Relson's reputation, you don't need to waste time responding to the trolls on this thread.

[IPON]

I do know what works because I have been to more tournaments than most people in the world & pay attention to who wins & what works. I am also sure I could pull each of your arms off and any catch wreslter you find. Then we could talk about what's more effective. I think that grappling & competition proves things not talking on the internet.

Dude Take 5 and relax. This is exactly where the conversation turns. The thread was started by somone who studies BJJ and noticed something in CACC and you take it as an attack on your virtue. His statement had nothing to do with you, though you are well accomplished you are not the spokesperson for BJJ I am sure there are enough Gracies and Machados for that job. You posted this "challege" that no CACC can beat you ..... now time for a little humility..... the grappling world does not revolve around you or Gracie Austin dojo. No Flame bro just reality.

I don't study BJJ, plan to study with Renzo in the next few months (time permitting) but I know grappling but if you feel I am not experienced enough to state an opion please ignore the follwing. What torunaments do CACC wrestlers participate... combat wrestling torneys? Do CACC wrestlers normally show at BJJ, or Judo tourney's - I am not being sarcastic (leading maybe) I don'ty know. I would assume they have there own tournaments like other styles. So when you ask what CACC stylist has beaten a BJJer well has any BJJ you know of the "good" or better fought a CACCer? I don't know (again not being sarcastic - just leading). From what have read no one has any proof that either style has beaten the other. We know pure wrestlers have given "good" Bjjer a run but eventually lost due to lack of submissions. So now we add submisions and it definately makes for an interestling question. which is closer to thepoint of this thread...let's look at the pros/cons of CACC/BJJ not dwell on I am Superior My style is superior, my instructor is superior

Now that we are back on planet earth. It does not surprise me that there is some simalarity between BJJ and CACC Matada did stay in EU and challenged CACC'ers and I am sure some of those techniques were incorporated before moved to Brasil and taught the first Gracie.


BTW good luck at the Pan AMs

[GRACIEAUSTIN]

I don't take anything I read on the internet to heart, so don't think I am worked up. Just because I am willing to roll with a cacc practitioner dosn't mean I am bent out of shape. I just train each day, that's all I do so suggesting to roll (or compete) is nothing but a days work for me. I also think it is the best way to figure out what works. I don't plan on ever proving anything with words on the internet. I also didn't want to get into a big drawn out thing here. I alo am very aware that their are lots of people that are spokesmen for the sport, each year I go to the Secretary of the Sport of Jiu-Jitsu's house Jose Moraes. I have two of his nephews at my house right now. I have swam in his pool, ate his BBQ, talked to his daughter & wife. I was their family's guest for 3 weeks last year & plan on doing the same each year till I am too old to go to Brazil. I do know what his job is (he explained it to me) I don't think the Jiu-Jitsu world revolves around me & know their are at minimum Hundreds of people that can tap me out. If you go back & read the very first post on here it sure looks like Matt Fury propaganda. When I see something I don't agree with I will always voice my opinion, I have earned that right & don't really want people only hearing 1 side of the story so to speak. Im done with this thread. Keep training hard. Phil - www.austinjj.com

[jubaji]

I'll just consider the source on that one. Once you actually accomplish something in the Martial Arts community your opinion might matter. Till then you are just another internet troll (that my students could chew up & spit out with ease). I was addressing my comments to the people that are posting about cacc. I have read each of your posts on the forum. WOW you have contributed lots man, good job, by I am really glad you can tell that Gracie Austin guys what's up.

Well its great that you are so impressed with yourself but I have news for you punk, you are not the first person in history to enter a few tournaments. Its great that you want to compete, but bragging on an internet forum is just pathetic. Keep it in perspective and you won't feel so bad later.

[jubaji]

I alo am very aware that their are lots of people that are spokesmen for the sport, each year I go to the Secretary of the Sport of Jiu-Jitsu's house Jose Moraes. I have two of his nephews at my house right now. I have swam in his pool, ate his BBQ, talked to his daughter & wife. I was their family's guest for 3 weeks last year & plan on doing the same each year till I am too old to go to Brazil. I have earned that right [/url]

Name dropping like a giddy school girl. Relax already!

[IPON]

I don't take anything I read on the internet to heart, so don't think I am worked up. Just because I am willing to roll with a cacc practitioner dosn't mean I am bent out of shape.

Actually, I re-read the posts an I do think I misundertsood how these posts evolved. It seemed as though you were just throwing out the challenge assuming you were unbeatable. My mistake. But I was serious about your next tourney good luck.


I am curious about something You said something about wrestling being the base for BJJ. Did you mean Mateda as a hybrid grappler or The relson gracie was a wrestler and that aspect is included in his teachings? Just curious

[jubaji]

Dude Take 5 and relax. This is exactly where the conversation turns. The thread was started by somone who studies BJJ and noticed something in CACC and you take it as an attack on your virtue. His statement had nothing to do with you, though you are well accomplished you are not the spokesperson for BJJ I am sure there are enough Gracies and Machados for that job. You posted this "challege" that no CACC can beat you ..... now time for a little humility..... the grappling world does not revolve around you or Gracie Austin dojo. No Flame bro just reality.
:

As usual, Mr. Ipon puts things more eloquently and politely than I.

[Szczepankiewicz]

As usual, Mr. Ipon puts things more eloquently and politely than I.

...and he didn't have to call anyone bad names.

Phil,

I agree with Jared Extreme, you have nothing to prove and are always fun to chat with.

For someone who's a 'self absorbed numbskull' you successfully avoided the Argumentum ad Baculum...

Good show old man!

Spanky

[jubaji]

...and

Phil,

I agree with Jared Extreme, you have nothing to prove and are always fun to chat with.

Good show old man!

Spanky

You two must be thrilled about the gay marriage movement! Have fun.

[Szczepankiewicz]

If gays are wise, they will nix the whole marriage thing.

The M word is bad. Very bad.

unless of course you're married to my lovely and sweet wife.

(Just in case she reads this.)

Oh, and before I forget: jujubee is a poopy head.

[jubaji]

If gays are wise, they will nix the whole marriage thing.

If they were wise they wouldn't miss out on the babeliciousness of the female. (ok, I guess the lesbians are kinda wise. Plus, they get their cars fixed for free)

[combatgrappling]

bjj is only ground grappling. Catch wrestling is a complete submission wrestling style that focuses equally on the standup and ground part of wrestling + Ripping and Gounging : (groin clawing, fishhooks, elbowing, eye gouging, scratching, flesh pinching, pressuring, lips tearing, nerve attacks, hair pulling, scratching, biting, stomping and striking).

Also in 1932 he fought American professional wrestler Fred Ebert for fourteen 10 minute rounds until the event was stopped by the police. Hèlio was stopped to fight by the doctor then due to the high fever caused by a swelling. Anyway Hélio had to undergo an urgent operation next day of the fight.

judoinfo

Sakuraba (whitout Ripping and Gounging techniques) defeated Royler Gracie, Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie and Ryan Gracie (in MMA).

[yipman]

" so why do bjj when catch has everything and more!!! " - I don't think you have been training in the right BJJ school or maybe you are just having a very tough time learning from the instruction you have been given. I am a brown belt under Master Relson Gracie. I am a light weight & I think that I could submit the best catch wrestler you can find. I would be glad to prove this to you, but will not argue about it over the internet. (I simply don't have time) I hope you continue to enjoy whatever type of training you want. I have my opinion & am willing to prove it, no hard feelings I hope.

Ever heard of Josh Barnett? Oh never mind - you could tap him. LOL

[Tim McFatridge]

I have trained in both BJJ and Catch and for me personally I prefer Catch Wrestling over BJJ. To me Catch is a more well rounded art than BJJ because it covers so much of the stand up. That is just my opinion guys. I still really like BJJ and still train in it. I currently have a purple belt so I am no where near the higher rank guys that visit this forum.

I am just offering up my opinion here. Both Catch and BJJ have A LOT to offer the practitioner if they are willing to put in the time. I think the big misconception or misunderstanding that most people have about Catch Wrestling is that they do not know what it is. No offense Phil I am not talking about you here just in general. When you say Catch Wrestling most people... even a lot of martial artist are not really sure what it is. They hear wrestling and they have all these things come to mind. Most people that I talk to about Catch do not know what it is. They are thinking something along the lines of Greco Roman. They are not familiar with the submissions, locks, takedowns, throws, sweeps, reaps, arm drags etc that are in Catch. They are thinking someone shooting in on them and trying to slam them and then pinning them to the ground because they think there are no submission.

I have had several guys join my class and start training and I explain to them what Catch is and then show them what it is and they are always amazed because as they usually say, " I had no idea what Catch Wrestling really was."

We have to understand that most people have heard of BJJ but few have heard of Catch Wrestling. Catch Wrestling has a unique history in this country just as Jiu Jitsu has a unique hisotry in Brazil.

Abraham Lincoln was a Champion Catch Wrestler in College. Catch Wrestlers in the early days honed their skills by fighting in the Army camps(1800's) and mining camps. Since Abraham Lincoln knew the value of wrestling he made it mandatory that all soldiers learn wrestling while serving in the U.S Army and suggested they have wrestling tournaments among the soldiers as a way for them to keep their skills sharp.

I only say this because the U.S. has a rich history when it comes to Catch Wrestling.

Yes... to whoever said it. Catch Wrestling does have its own tournaments that they compete in and the rules are different from BJJ tournament rules. You can make the argument both ways... why hasn't there been any CACC guys beat any BJJ guys in the big BJJ tournaments? Then the CACC guys say why hasn't there been any BJJ guys beat any CACC guys in the Catch Wrestling Tournaments.

When it comes to this type of debate everyone needs to agree to disagree from the beginning because no one will ever have their mind changed.

IN the famous words of Rodney King: "CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?"

Good Luck Phil in the Pan Am's

[cheech]

I realize this thread is a bit old, but interesting. Curious what you guys are referring to when talking about catch and catch can wrestling. Back in the day, amateur american freestyle wrestling was classified as catch as catch can, before we switched to international freestyle rules. Sometime after that the old catch as catch can style became "folk style". Dan Gable in the early '70s won our first olympic medal. Shortly after that the US switched to international rules in order to become more competitive. Severn et al would have grown up w/ the international freestyle rules instead of catch as catch can.

I've never wrestled a BJJ guy (a little too long in the tooth). I have wrestled a Judoka who claimed to have won some tournaments and had no problem, even though he out weighed me.

While the old CACC wrestling was superior IMO, to modern freestyle, and Greco Roman, the rules existed to minimize the potential of injury so no chokes, no slams, no moves designed for pain only. Of course, if you get a bunch of guys together they're going to push the rules, and cheat, especially in practice.

In CACC, the rules made all of the common joint locks illegal. However w/ enough practice, defense against joint locks becomes intuitive and easy. I ran into one kid that claimed that he could submit anyone w/ a wrist lock. Even though he out weighed me by almost 100 pounds, and I was a good 20 years past my prime at the time, I had to try him. I gave him the wrist over and over, but he was unable to do anything w/ it.

There are a huge number of take downs in CACC. There are a fair number of submission moves, but not as many as BJJ. Keeping in mind that a move that causes pain is allowed, but only if it meets the safety requirements and is part of a pinning move. IMO CACC wrestlers normally have better basic skills and balance than BJJ practitioners. Mainly because of the way wrestling is practiced and organized. Because of the safety factors inherent in the rules moves are always executed at full speed and force. Because of the organization, the level of competition is much higher than what I see in less organized styles.