A question on shooting.

[chris davis 200]

Hi all,

I have a quick question for the BJJ guys.

During a recent sparring session at my JJ school, one of the guys tried to shoot in. He connected with me fine and i elbowed straight down with the point of my elbow just to the side of his spine (it was a controlled strike). he released and dropped. It took him a few mins to recover and i had to give him some tui na massage to help him out.

attacking the spine and neck of an opponent is quite a speciality in some of the arts i study - most noticeably Ba gua.

I have seen a large amount of people shoot for a takedown but due to the rules of modern competition, where strikes to the neck and spine are prohibited, the concern and consideration of spine attacks seem to be absent.

My question would be, how is this sort of strike allowed for in BJJ or is it taken that such a strike will not do sufficient damage as to be a worry?

Driving the point of your elbow into / between someones vertibrae should be a concern IMO.

Interested to hear you thoughts.

Kindest regards
chris

[Tom Yum]

It sounds like he spent too long trying to 'tackle' you and didn't 'round the corner'. If he's trying to tackle you or go for a low single leg, he probably left his back quite exposed.

In a double leg, the instant you connect, you 'round the corner' which means you explode off of one leg, use your arms to squeeze your opponents legs together and pivot so that your opponent falls back and to his side.

Once you connect, there's hardly enough time to do anything since your legs are squeezed together (moving your center of balance higher) and are being driven at an angle.

Getting hit on the back and neck is a concern for anyone. Who knows maybe your kung fu stance was low and stable so the only takedown he shot in for was a single leg, giving you the opportunity to strike his neck or back.

[pstevens]

Tom is correct... Unless your partner was attempting a high single leg, his back wouldn't be exposed for more than a second, in which case, it would still be almost impossible to elbow.

The impact of a low double or single leg takedown puts your head around the thigh/hip region. The takedown should be fast, almost jerking the person back — somewhat similar to slipping backward on ice.

My guess is that your training partner didn't get a good shoot or follow through. Since even on a standing single or double leg, you should immediately drive the opponent to one side, forward or by using a wizzer.

Even so, if you've found a method of thwarting an attempt to shoot... Good for you! That's why we train. In fact, to answer your question, sport BJJ doesn't allow any strikes... Although you can usually find several instances where striking would be useful. For instance, in someone's guard you can cause much pain and discomfort to their groin and buttocks area by throwing knees. The only instances of strikes are found in Vale Tudo/NHB events which doesn't use some of the techniques found in sport BJJ, and rightfully so.

[chris davis 200]

I dont really have a stance per say. non of the arts i learn teach to fight using set stances.

i was in a fairly close leged neutral stance, no bobbing, but was following his body motion. as he went for the shoot i dropped my rear leg back and rooted. he hit me hard, but didnt move me back. i raised my arm as he connected and dropped it into his back as he tried to drop me.

I guess it was kinda like below from a stance a following point of view. finish is very different though. check out the video of takedown defence.

http://www.evolutionary-systems.com/

The timing was as good as i was gonna get it. I would say he was going for a double leg.

cheers

chris

[darrianation]

Pstevens and tom are right once he's into your legs and begins the lift it take any power you have for a downward strike out of the equation.

Now with a sprawl with your elbow getting into his neck or collar bone can work, or after the sprawl and you come down on his back in a north/south you may have time to elbow at this time depending on how quick he is, but I would go for control first. This is also a good time to go for a guillotine. It all depends on position and how fast he can react.

[chris davis 200]

Thanks for the responces guys, i was sure there was a concideration for it.

I dont think i explained the method i used very well so i will try to break it down.

1, opponent faked a low knee kick and dropped begining to shoot.

2, i drop my left hip, stepping back on my left leg and raising my right arm.

3, he slams into my right upper thigh with his left shoulder, trapping my left arm in the proccess.

4, the the point of contact i absorb the impact into my left leg, rolling my hips back and to the left with the impact. this starts a twist of my body fueling the motion of my elbow downwards.

5, he begins to lift and drive from his back leg.

6, my elbow strike is already in motion by this point - the forearm is vertical with the elbow low and the hand open and high, facing my body.

7, the impact of my elbow occures. hitting him just lower than the scapular on the muscle ridge next to the spine.

8, the power in his takedown drops and he falls my left side.

hope this clears up what i mean.

It is obvious to me why such moves are not allowed in BJJ competition. I was interested if the art takes this sort of strike into consideration. it appears that the takedowns at a high level do not open the back or neck up? Is this what you mean?

Cheers
Chris

[CKD]

Actually the method of slamming the elbow into the back to the neck is part of bjj I believe. It is used as a defense against a takedown. Only it was a bit different.I found it in BJJ Self defense. Here is the excerpt from BJJ Self Defense by Royce Gracie and Charls Gracie.
"1.Charles shoots for a clinch, perhaps attempting a double or single leg takedown.
2.Step back in base with your right leg, both hands on his shoulder.
3.Drive your right elbow into his spine.
4.(Option) Drive your right knee into his face."
If Royce Gracie uses it I bet he knows a counter for it. Its not the best way to stop a takedown. Someone elbowed the back of Kerr several times in Pride but it did not seem to bother him.

[tekshow]

^^^ yeah, that all works... you don't have to hit to the spine though; that could be particularly mean, especially in practice with a training partner you respect. As you saw it took him a few minutes to get up even with a controlled strike.

like stevens and tom mentioned, the sprawl is where it's at. only if my assumption is correct and that in the best case scenario you don't want the opponent to catch your legs.


here's how i was taught:


1.opponent drops to their knee and performs the shot aiming for the legs for a takedown

2.hop back with your legs and drop your chest on top of the opponenets back, driving your weight to the ground, now in N/S position.

or

3. hop back with your legs and base out and shove your forearm straight out into the collar bone. This one is one of my favorites, especially on people bigger than myself. it's also legal because you're planting the forearm on the collar and shoulder so that you're away from the neck.


both those usually leave me with plenty of space and if you drive the guy down far enough a guilotine can be an easy submission, but i like whipping around on the back, putting a hook in and going for a rear naked choke.

good shot with the elbow, just be careful. i saw a guy take a 'light' back kick to the spine once and he was out of the game for months. sucks to do that to a trianing partner or anyone for that matter. take care.


peace. joe.

[Jazzshredder86]

I'd watch throwing knees on someone trying to take you down unless you've got them sprawled out really low, as they're gonna see it coming and itll be highly telegraphic. They might just trap the knee and dump you on your side. I always tell people to stay rooted and balanced, and to strike only with the hands/elbows/headbutts. If a guy gets a really good clinch tight on you, and this isnt for a sport or vale tudo environment, stick a finger in his eye or fish hook him so you can turn his face and trunk away....