Vale Tudo

[Thai Bri]

And is some sad bastard prattling around with his mates and a pair of boxing gloves also Vale Tudo training?

You are making this up as you go along, you nonce.

[wardancer]

No Thai Bri, I am not making this up.
Pstevens and CDK are having a hard time defining the line between BJJ and Vale Tudo.
For Pstevens, vale tudo is totaly different.
For CDK, vale tudo is part of BJJ.
They are actually both right.
To complicate stuff even worse, some dude will call their own brand of vale tudo as their own personal flavour of MA style.
To answer your question, yes if boxers put some gloves on in order to practice/fight/compete according to vale tudo rules, I will call that vale tudo training/fighting even they have never spoke/train with a Brazilian instructor.
The fact that they are likely to loose because they only train stand up striking (assuming that you are talking about your so overrated Muy Thai style) is true.
Unless you have a different view, I will love to hear your definition of Vale Tudo training.

[Thai Bri]

I know you would.

[wardancer]

You are making this up as you go along, you nonce.

There is nothing to make up about BJJ vale tudo training or BJJ No-Gi training.
Everybody love to talk about it but nobody writes about what they do at a their No Gi BJJ training. CKD reckons I am not too far from what he does.

My opponent will use strikes to put me off my grappling attempts.

Even if I put him on a closed guard, he will keep punching my face, skull, side ribs, kidneys (whatever part of your body you are not protecting), if I keep your arms and hands to shield my head, he will attempt an arm lock for e.g or keep pounding away.
If the guy is good and pass my closed guard, he will go side control, knee on stomach, mount and keep punching (he can attempt submission and chokes if he wants to). Even worse if I turn my back and go turtle, I am in a big problem with a guy punching the back of my skull.
Now if you cannot take the amount of punches because the opponent has achieved a good dominant position (mount) and all your sweeps/chokes/locks atttempts have failed, you can always tap out.
Suddendly doing such type of training it quickens my BJJ skills, I simply cannot afford to take my time setting up your favorite sweeps/strikes/locks/chokes because of the punches even if I am on the mount the guy at the buttom will keep firing away.
Now it better if one partner put the gloves on and the other only uses his grappling, the idea of the exercise is to practise your BJJ skills under 'firing power'.
It is not a striking trasining as such where we want to proove who can hit the hardest/fatest. Doing so would counter-productive, in BJJ (in general) you only strike when your opponent has no chance to hit you back e.g mount/rear control with hooks.
Now, that is what I do. We also fight with Gi and no strikes (BJJ sport).
You are jealous, so be it.

[Thai Bri]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Thai Bri]

By the way. Has anyone noticed how wardancer is beginnig to sound like sherwinc?

[wardancer]

By the way. Has anyone noticed how wardancer is beginnig to sound like sherwinc?

This is BJJ forum so I can talk about my BJJ training. Others BJJ members would enjoy read about it. Most probably, your sacarstic remarks stop them from giving any inputs.
Your inputs to this forum are just useless: you have a big mental problem by the way you consistently seek attention from others in this forum. Afterall, you do not practice BJJ.

[Thai Bri]

Who needs to pratice when they are already perfect?

[CKD]

Wardancer does not sound like sherwinc. I enjoy his posts about his training. Sorry if you can't appreciate it. Go be perfect.

[Thai Bri]

How long have you enjoyed sherwinc's posts then?

[wardancer]

Wardancer does not sound like sherwinc. I enjoy his posts about his training. Sorry if you can't appreciate it. Go be perfect.

Sorry about the layoff, being busy training.
My BJJ team has being very active lately.
And yes, my friend Billy from the BJJ team had a vale tudo fight.
He won versus a brown belt from another team (BJJ not sure as his instructor is not brazilian!) in a vale tudo challenge.
Billy is just a BJJ Blue belt but have been an active Thai Boxer in his earlier days, he decided to join in and promote/represent the new NHB/MMA fighing format known as vale tudo. I must say I am pretty impressed by his techniques.
As we went to support him at the fight (organised under the banner of a thai box night event, very bloody and a lot of blood) the fight was in the ring with no hold barred rules), Billy did not advantage his experienced striking abilities as I was expecting but concentrated on subs/finishing moves. It was a very demonstration of mixed skilled with a lot of strikes and grappling.
His opponent was good as he did not tap out but got caught in most subs but was totally dominated during the 3X5 min fight.

We have full on vale tudo classes/training only for BJJ blue belt next year and that is a bonus for the team to look forward to!
We are gonna have a BJJ team represented in the vale tudo scene in our country.

To conlude I like to say that what is missing from the TMA is the rejection of modern MA challenge such as vale tudo. It is the only the way to know what works or not?

[HtTKar]

I have to ask out of curiosity.
Is it really that hard to take a BJJ guy trying to strike, to the ground?
After all I cant imagine that they are very good strikers at all. Why dont they bring in some boxers to spar with, or someone from a different MA that actually knows how to throw a punch? Having a grappler throw some looping punches is not much of a deterent.

Vale Tudo takes the most effective combat techniques from styles such as Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, Sambo, Greco-Roman Wrestling and Western Boxing. Two people rolling around is not vale-tudo jutsu. Most people that get into vale-tudo jutsu are in it to get better at their grappling skills that most MA lack. Coming from a BJJ background you should be getting into Vale-Tudo to develope your kicks and punches. What skills are you really gaining by having a wrestler throw ineffective untrained punches, while you use well practiced takedowns and submissions against him?

[wardancer]

I have to ask out of curiosity.
Is it really that hard to take a BJJ guy trying to strike, to the ground?
After all I cant imagine that they are very good strikers at all. Why dont they bring in some boxers to spar with, or someone from a different MA that actually knows how to throw a punch? Having a grappler throw some looping punches is not much of a deterent.

Vale Tudo takes the most effective combat techniques from styles such as Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, Sambo, Greco-Roman Wrestling and Western Boxing. Two people rolling around is not vale-tudo jutsu. Most people that get into vale-tudo jutsu are in it to get better at their grappling skills that most MA lack. Coming from a BJJ background you should be getting into Vale-Tudo to develope your kicks and punches. What skills are you really gaining by having a wrestler throw ineffective untrained punches, while you use well practiced takedowns and submissions against him?

That is a good point.
Vale tudo is a fighting format not a MA.
In Brazil, it is used to prove who has the best MA skills.
it has being used by the BJJ clubs as a platform to proove sucessfully that BJJ is the best.
Because of BJJ reputation, you get a lot of MA dudes from striking background interested in widening their skills ranges.
For us, vale tudo is not to learn new skills but a challenge to prove that BJJ is the best.
People in vale tudo can come from any style, it does not matter!
Being caught under somebody mount or in your guard punching you face with gloves should give you a wake up call.
The point is to learn to use BJJ skills against strikers.
If you want to learn kicks and punches, you are better off learning Thai box.
If you come from BJJ and want to fight vale tudo then you have to learn how to fight versus a striker!

[HtTKar]

If you come from BJJ and want to fight vale tudo then you have to learn how to fight versus a striker!

Ok, I can understand what you say, and it makes sense from a BJJ standpoint. However, like you said a BJJ artist is not a striker. Dont you think that your skills against a striker would improve dramatically if you were actually practicing against a real striker (Thai boxer was your example), rather than a BJJ practitioner throwing punches? I understand that a little practice is better than none, but dont you think it could be improved upon by bringing in the best strikers around and learning how to develope your skills against them?

For us, vale tudo is not to learn new skills but a challenge to prove that BJJ is the best.

Everything that you do is to learn or at least perfect your skills. Why settle for less than the best sparring partners at what you are trying to perfect?

Thank you for your answers so far, I look forward to more discussion. Thanks

[wardancer]

Well, I forgot to tell you that we train in a Thai Box Club (www.etk.co.nz). There is a icon of Doulgas Jiu Jitsu in the training page. It is my fault as I assumed you knew.

The majority of our BJJ team members are from the thai box club: they have good striking skills and some of them have fought in the ring versus other thai clubs before fighting vale tudo like Billy.
So we do not have to look too far for practicing vs strikers.
If someone want to practise striking, it is offered at the same location.

There is different strategies for vale tudo.

Some clubs promote the concept of outstriking a wrestler and outwrestling a striker. Such concept requires a good level of each style crosstraining. Who has the time for that? If you can train everyday almost at the rate of a pro, why not?

My original post was to explain how hard it was to use BJJ vs someone striking.
It is still my major focus of research.
I am not too interested in learning striking (I have done a few years of contact Karate) but would really like to be able to use BJJ vs strikers.
I think it is a pity/counter-productive for BJJ novice to train at striking skills thinking it is going to improve their vale tudo.

Because I think the classical BJJ strategy is to take the fight to the ground where you spend most of your time training and winning by submission.
You still have to learn how to get to the clinch without getting hit and takedowns and avoiding to get hit once you are on the ground.

Now due to UFC and Pride for e.g, people expections of a vale tudo fighter is an all-rounder and well-versed athlete in all the best MAs.

The only allowed form cross training with our BJJ instructor is Thai Box at the same club. He simply refuses his students to train at other MA clubs and vice versus no students from other clubs.
Of course, most students that do cross training most probably keep it quiet!
But I think this philosophy applies mostly with training under one brazilian instructor, he will make sure that he does not train students of 'rival' clubs.
Brazilians are very competitive and that would why they are not interested to train some dudes today that will fight his students. It is nothing worse that seeing guys coming in to learn how to defeat a BJJer rather to learn the art.
But that happen all the time, a karateka might want to come learn all the BJJ stuff and then move on or even worst wanting to fight vale tudo under his karate banner. Therefore never representing the BJJ team.
I have to go training..
To conclude vale tudo is not for everybody but having a few good vale tudo fighters in a BJJ team always make things interesting as it the true form of MA compare to the McDojos.