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Best art to take up to be a doormen

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ironjay
    Hey i was wondering im 20 and due to start as a doormen/bouncer security man at a night club , and was wondering what would be best to take up

    Cheers for any help
    www.geoffthompson.com or the o'neill method. watch the devil's brigade if you want some history.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
      Hapkido is awesome, but most of the teachers out there that claim to teach it are McDojo TKD black belts that say they teach Hapkido too. There's so much fake Hapkido going on out there, such a shame because it's a very realistic and effective fighting art.
      If you randomly pick a Hapkido school from your yellow pages most of the time you'll find a bullsh;t school. Same with Wing Chun.
      I'd recommend visiting the school, talking with the instructor and watching a class or two.

      I visited a Hapkido Dojang awhile ago and wasn't impressed with the training. It was a traditional Hapkido school and the instructor was an American who had studied under a Korean Master. They did some sparring; 90% of the students were pretty stiff, kicked slowly and punched without body power. There was however a 1st or 2nd dan black belt who had good technique and didn't seem afraid of getting hit. But most of the students, even the red belts, were no where close to this guy.

      The tuition was about $100 per month. Considering the quality of the students, the tuition wasn't worth it.

      In a good Hapkido dojang, watch the higher level belts (red, brown, etc.). If they can throw crisp punches and kicks with body power, successfully execute sweeps while sparring and flow well in their grappling and locking, I'd say it was a school worth looking into.

      Also, watch out for the well choreographed demonstrations. They're good to watch, but if the demo guy throws punches and leaves em locked out that's a sign that you might want to look at the next school.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ironjay
        Hey i was wondering im 20 and due to start as a doormen/bouncer security man at a night club , and was wondering what would be best to take up

        I have to answer this in 2 parts:

        Though some may disagree, but I feel if you have no background in MAs or fighting etc. It may not be a good idea to be a bouncer unless you are just really tall and cock strong and depending on the area, type of club and clientele it is probably not worth it for the money. I do agree that bouncer should work as a collective it have been my experience that intentionally or unintentionally, other bouncers are not always there to take your back. When a real fight breaks people walk out of the back door or (as with the club I work) there are multiple floors not everyone will be there to help even with radios it can be difficult. So the point is, no you are not invincible, but you should be very comfortable and confident in being able to protect yourself with the assumption that you will be by yourself.


        Regarding styles. Alot of this depends on what state you will work, but I would say a grappling style that that promotes standing locks, seizures, immobilization (holds) Judo, JJJ, BJJ, Aikido, Hapkido etc. But again, if you are starting from scratch I would recommend not starting depending on the club. You will want to avoid actual fighting. I was involved in a situation where I throw these 2 guys out and one I had to struggle with and he slipped down the stairs and I caught him by shirt and arm. Well his shirt was ripped, he had blood from the railing and after I threw him out he ran to the corner and call the police 10 minutes later police can and I was potentially looking at jail time. Fortunately, the officer realizes how coked up this guy was and how much he contradicted himself. But in NYC if there is any blood or visible damage to the patron it’s a wrap. While the reality is that we throw people out figuratively and literally, etc. The state does not recognize that as our job, the sate would look at it more as a security guard.

        So my point is punching/striking is good to know and if something breaks out at the club you do what you have to do for your survival, but for day to day locks are far better and chokes are fine when you have experience with then. I have broken up fight at the bar by grabbing the neck and obstructing the trachea with my thumb....believe me most people don’t have too much heart and will calm down so you can take them out side. And the one that fight back ...oh well they would have anyway and you have then in better position.

        Keys to success: Most bouncers are A-holes and mostly because they drink a lot. Most problems I see is usually a result the bouncer disrespecting the patron instead of showing respect. Many, muscle bound dudes have gotten there asses handed to them as they cannot fight, they just have the intimidation factor. I knew this one bouncer was a street brawler/boxer and he told me how he fought and I asked him to try his move on me (kinda freestyle mini sparring before the doors opened). Well he came in grabbed my shoulder (by the shirt) and I proceeded to locked the arm. He was face down on the floor in pain (I was not trying to hurt him just show him). The point of this was I was explaining that if he treated me as he treated other patron I would put his ass through a wall along with most of the bouncers worked with (well one on one in any case). His comment “well I would never do that [move] to you because of all the shit you know” I said “perhaps if you knew me, but if you did not know me you would not think that way” the morale – always show patrons respect because it is your job and it can make your night easier and if you are incapable of doing that then respect the fact that you don’t know what people know …. That can land you in the hospital.

        My 2 cents

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        • #19
          I have worked a few years as a doorman now, started at 18.. my experience si that the tool you should practise the most is your head, the way I see it, whem you have to touch the customer, you have already lost.. Ofcourse there are situations you cannot handle without being "violent" but for the most common situations, a calm and rational bouncer is far better than an agressive and angry bouncer.


          for arts I would practice: well, my choices are krav maga and shootfighting.. In the shootfightign I get resisting opponents both standing and on the ground, and i get a good grasp when it comes to force, distance and the likes. In Krav maga i get the tools I can use to build on my shootfighting platform.. tools to use against weapons and tools that work in a more realistic enviroment.

          but well, if you have the option of Geoff Thompson, I would pick him if bouncing is what you want to do.. and what you want to train for.

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          • #20
            First I'll say Geoff Thompson is very knowledgeable, but unless you have experience in MAs it can be difficult to learn effectiveness from books and videos. However still get the "fence" It's good.

            I'll tell you what I tell everyone. There is this thing I call the self-defense triangle it has three sides to it and all three elements need to be there.

            1) Psychological
            2) Physical
            3) Techniques

            Psychological- development of mindset, dealing with fear and adrenaline.

            mindset

            1) Determination (heart)
            2) Toughness
            3) Focus
            4) Decision making
            5) Confidence

            Physical- Development of physical attributes, like strength, power, speed, agility, conditioning, and ETC.

            Techniques- Functional techniques, strategies, and tactics.

            You also need knowledge of attack and criminal mindset. Also avoidance, and as a doorman you really need good Tactical communication skills to de-escalate any potential problems.

            Good luck!

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            • #21
              I just want to add under techniques the three areas of concentration.

              1) Striking
              2) Grappling
              3) Weapons

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              • #22
                I've got the impression that many of the people here who have done security have only worked in places that usually hold no more than 50 people at a time. In a small bar or hole in the wall I guess some of these ideas are feasible. I've worked in places that are pretty big, with a staff of security no less than 20 on the floor. For me, the option of verbal diffuses comes far and few because in the bars and clubs I worked, you could barely hear each other.

                Also, when people are arguing, if I can get over to them before they throw a punch, 9 times out of 10 they weren't going to fight anyway. They were just dealing lip service to impress some girl or their group.

                If you're going to be at a small, local dive where you're maybe 1 of 3 or 4 guys working, then I'd suggest you take up aikido, aikijujitsu or a style where you can blend, unbalance and control an assault with either joint locks or pinning moves. Anyone who suggests that you take up a striking art to do security at a nightclub is asking you basically to go to jail. Even though Hapkido has joint locks, it takes years to become proficient enough to be able to get the opportunity to use them, and at the first sign of assault you'll fall back on the skills you are more comfortable with like kicking, punching kneeing and elbowing. You don't have to take my word for it. Go out and hit somebody at the club at when you're in the holding pen you'll be oddly thinking about an internet post that warned you not to unless it came down to a situation where you knew you had to go all out.

                If you happen to be working at a club like the ones I worked at...where there are more than 500-1000 patrons in the club at one time...then you'll be working with at least 20-30 guys. In that situation, most of the tactics you'll see will look like playing football. Tackles, stiff-arms, pushing, pulling, forearm checks, and lots of group draggings. In those situations, there won't be many times where you'll be facing off with any one guy by yourself.

                As far as being a doorman, 95% of the violence in bar and club settings comes from inside the club, so you won't have too much to worry about when it comes to being at the door. In places where the head man knows what he's doing they hire based on how intimidating a guy is, not as to well he fights. If you're too scared of the guys telling you to calm down to swing, there is no fight.

                The thing that will keep you the safest on the job is communication with your other workers. If you all are each others eyes and ears, you should never be alone and therefore never too shorthanded.

                I also agree that unless you are experienced in the arts, learning from books and videos will get you killed. Geoff Thompson might have some good advice, but I don't practice anything because it just sounds good. If I haven't seen it in application, I don't subscribe to it.

                Peace

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Uke
                  I've got the impression that many of the people here who have done security have only worked in places that usually hold no more than 50 people at a time. In a small bar or hole in the wall I guess some of these ideas are feasible. I've worked in places that are pretty big, with a staff of security no less than 20 on the floor. For me, the option of verbal diffuses comes far and few because in the bars and clubs I worked, you could barely hear each other.

                  Also, when people are arguing, if I can get over to them before they throw a punch, 9 times out of 10 they weren't going to fight anyway. They were just dealing lip service to impress some girl or their group.

                  If you're going to be at a small, local dive where you're maybe 1 of 3 or 4 guys working, then I'd suggest you take up aikido, aikijujitsu or a style where you can blend, unbalance and control an assault with either joint locks or pinning moves. Anyone who suggests that you take up a striking art to do security at a nightclub is asking you basically to go to jail. Even though Hapkido has joint locks, it takes years to become proficient enough to be able to get the opportunity to use them, and at the first sign of assault you'll fall back on the skills you are more comfortable with like kicking, punching kneeing and elbowing. You don't have to take my word for it. Go out and hit somebody at the club at when you're in the holding pen you'll be oddly thinking about an internet post that warned you not to unless it came down to a situation where you knew you had to go all out.

                  If you happen to be working at a club like the ones I worked at...where there are more than 500-1000 patrons in the club at one time...then you'll be working with at least 20-30 guys. In that situation, most of the tactics you'll see will look like playing football. Tackles, stiff-arms, pushing, pulling, forearm checks, and lots of group draggings. In those situations, there won't be many times where you'll be facing off with any one guy by yourself.

                  As far as being a doorman, 95% of the violence in bar and club settings comes from inside the club, so you won't have too much to worry about when it comes to being at the door. In places where the head man knows what he's doing they hire based on how intimidating a guy is, not as to well he fights. If you're too scared of the guys telling you to calm down to swing, there is no fight.

                  The thing that will keep you the safest on the job is communication with your other workers. If you all are each others eyes and ears, you should never be alone and therefore never too shorthanded.

                  I also agree that unless you are experienced in the arts, learning from books and videos will get you killed. Geoff Thompson might have some good advice, but I don't practice anything because it just sounds good. If I haven't seen it in application, I don't subscribe to it.

                  Peace
                  I have never been a doorman, but I have been in altercations with them a time or two. Anyway I can imagine some control moves and compliant holds would come in handy. My concern is if you went to a Aikido dojo and asked to be just trained in those afore mentioned techniques if they would teach it or you would have to start from the beginning and learn the whole system and 10 years later you can now apply a few techniques.

                  I know there are people out there that do seminars or hold camps for just this purpose. These are good add-ons to whatever MA you do. The problem with Aikido or like systems is they take a lot of time to learn and they don’t have the benefit of good solid striking skills and groundwork witch you will also need.

                  Most of the doormen I know are just big mean MF’ers or just ordinary looking guys with no training at all, but they can still crack heads. But many in law enforcement and bouncers too have had great success talking down rowdies and people in heightened emotional states.

                  So my advice is still the same, if you want to learn to fight, pick a system that has practical striking, grappling, and weapons skills. If it has standing control moves great but be careful in most TMAs standing control hold/locks are a joke (but some are good). But if the system doesn’t have them, then it may behoove you to find some add-ons.

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                  • #24
                    Vale tudo , what do u recon of this , i heard there isa good teacher in my town , would this be effective asa doormen , cheers

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                    • #25
                      IronJay - can you give a location of the bar (city state) and what type of club (size clientele) it would be helpful

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                      • #26
                        Im in uk , its in my town , a large town , and it is a 3 floor night club , and has over 5000 people in a night

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ironjay
                          Vale tudo , what do u recon of this , i heard there isa good teacher in my town , would this be effective asa doormen , cheers
                          Anyone correct me if I am wrong, but Vale tudo is not a system it's a tourney with certain rules. They allow striking and grappling and it has it's influences in BJJ and Muay Thai. If this is what this guy is teaching then it sounds good.

                          I would talk to him and ask questions and get the feel for what he is teaching, and watch a few classes too. Good luck.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Uke
                            For me, the option of verbal diffuses comes far and few because in the bars and clubs I worked, you could barely hear each other.
                            Mediation training for bouncers a possibility

                            Ohio state u.
                            The Lantern
                            (U-WIRE) COLUMBUS, Ohio — Requirements for becoming a bouncer at an Ohio bar may soon include more than a muscular physique and being able to toss a person 15 feet if newly introduced legislation is enacted.
                            State Sen. David Goodman, R-Bexley, introduced a bill into the Ohio Senate that would require all bouncers, doormen and other security personnel at establishments serving alcohol to receive training in mediation techniques.
                            The proposal, Senate Bill 209, is a direct response to the Dec. 2 death of a patron after an altercation with a bouncer at Dick Clark's American Bandstand Grill on Hutchinson Avenue.

                            Vincent Darling, 41, died of neck trauma after a physical confrontation with a bouncer. Darling's blood-alcohol content was 0.27 percent, well over twice the legal limit for driving in Ohio.
                            Columbus police have not filed any charges in response to Darling's death. Lymanstall "Vincent's unfortunate death is not a singular occurrence," Goodman said. "Patrons elsewhere have died from asphyxiation or have been injured by a chokehold.

                            "This measure would provide guidelines for establishments to ensure its patrons are protected reasonably well."
                            Owners and managers of bars by the Ohio State University campus seem to agree the additional training in mediation would be beneficial for both the bouncers and the customers. "I think it is a really good idea," said Tarsa Favata, manager of Buffalo Wild Wings, 7 E. Woodruff Ave. "You can't just hire someone off the street for the job, they have to have a certain mentality to be able to perform the job effectively."

                            Roma Painter, owner of Bernie's/The Distillery, 1896 N. High St., said although her doormen rarely encounter unruly behavior from customers, she sees the need for mediation training because of past problems with physical force being abused at other bars.
                            At least two campus bouncers share the sentiment that the bill is a good idea. "I'd be up for a class," said John Alley, a bouncer at The Roxy, 2159 N. High St. "It would be beneficial because there are some bouncers that don't really know what they're doing and are basically just there to push people around." Alley, a student at Columbus State Community College, said he rarely encounters any problems at The Roxy, and on the rare occasion there is a fight of any nature, physical force is rarely necessary.
                            "Most college guys tend to get intimidated if they are simply told to stop by a bouncer," Alley said.

                            Joe French, also a bouncer at The Roxy, agreed a class in mediation wouldn't hurt. "I'd be interested in learning different techniques and what to do in different situations," said French, a junior in education at Ohio State University.

                            Goodman said most bouncers he has spoken to want more procedural guidelines and support the bill. There is no Ohio law that specifically addresses bouncers and doormen at all. "We cannot expect bouncers to act appropriately when we have not provided them with the tools to do so," Goodman said.

                            Most establishments do, however, already provide some form of training for their security personnel. "We go through our own tailored training process," said Mike Simbro, owner of The Roxy. "We provide manuals for our doormen and focus on processes on dealing with customers that have proven to be effective."

                            Andrew Herf, vice president of legislative affairs for the Wholesale Beer and Wine Association of Ohio, said he supports the bill and would like to see it extended to servers as well. "Training could increase the revenue for businesses because when employees are properly trained, there will be fewer citations for sales to underage customers," Herf said. "Proper training can also minimize server and establishment liability in a lawsuit."
                            Herf said there is training available online for techniques in alcohol management for all servers and doormen at the Ohio Licensed Beverage Association Web site.

                            A committee will be looking into exactly who would be paying for the mediation program, Goodman said.
                            The law would be under the jurisdiction of the Liquor Control Commission. The commission would be responsible for determining the composition of the training as well.
                            — Carrie Marie

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                            • #29
                              I would say Judo is the way to go. Standing armbars, grip fighting, standing chokes (as a last resort) and throws all work well into what a bouncer needs. You learn good footwork and how to keep from being taken down. But more important than how you fight is how well you keep your head and your cool.

                              I worked security for awhile (Worst possible situation. A strip club with 100-200 people and we worked ALONE. I was too young to know how bad of an idea that was, and the owner was a cheap skate bastard). I was a blue belt in Hap-Ki-Do at the time. It didn't help much, I round house kicked some guy in the face once, that was about the extent my training to that point helped. Looking back on it now Judo would have been a great help to me then (of course 2 other security guys on duty would have been a bigger help!).

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ironjay
                                Hey i was wondering im 20 and due to start as a doormen/bouncer security man at a night club , and was wondering what would be best to take up

                                Cheers for any help
                                I'd start with the art of observation. Especially at the door, alot of things can be avoided before they begin, if you have a keen eye.

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