It's Ironic... BJJ vs Striking

[pstevens]

I find it ironic that the Gracies who have been mocking striking arts have been forced to learn them to stay in the game. After his short stint in the UFC, Royce Gracie really began training boxing and Muay Thai with Renzo. Unfortunately, it didn't do him much good against Sakuraba.

After Royler got KO'ed by Genki Sudo, some BJJ guys I know only began to realize that it's not BJJ, but the better athlete that wins. Consider that the Gracies have been doing BJJ all their lives, but that didn't mean anything against better athletes who were trained to some degree in grappling, but possessed striking abilities as well. If BJJ were truly the factor, then someone who has been training BJJ all their life, would always win... Which is hardly the case.

Now, it seems the BJJ guys are hiding behind their art, just as TMA's once did. We've got tons of BJJ black belts opening gyms... Some have trained with Helio, Royler, Rolls, Carlson, etc... But they haven't been validated by any kind of fighting experience either... Just like the TMA's that were accused. Seems people are again caught up in the mysticism of martial arts.

I've seen BJJ blue belts who think they can fight... But in the ring, they fold like burning paper after a good knee. I've also seen great kickers and strikers who don't have a clue against takedowns and submissions. So what does it mean? The stronger, better conditioned athlete will win almost all the time and it don't mean shiet where you came from.

You can be the best from Brasil, Japan or the US, but when you go out to face the world, it's a different ball game.

[CKD]

You really go out of your way to trash bjj and the gracies don't you? It seems everything you post about seems to try to diss bjj. Hiding behind there arts? Then why are the Gracies and other BJJ fighters still fighting. The people that have beaten the gracies have taken there advice and taken up bjj. I can't even think of a fighter who doesn't do bjj or another similar form of grappling. BJJ is literally the basis of mma. The reason other fighters are succeeding against bjj is because they study bjj and its gameplan and turn it around sometimes. Now its an even split between fighters who do bjj and some striking and fighters who do striking and a decent amount of bjj. Could you please direct me to the BJJ blackbelts who do not deserve it. Or the BJJ fighters who are hiding behind there art? That was the Gracie mission. As for the Gracies becoming meaningless in mma. Did you ever realize fighters get old and need to retire? Thats whats happening. Now is the time of the new Gracies to come up and takeover. Like Crosley, Robson's son and Rodrigo. As for the new generation becoming meaningless, was it just me or was it Rodrigo who beat up Sakurai, the best fighter in Japan. There not becoming extinct, the old ones just need to retire and the new ones need to fight harder,

[Mr. Miyagi]

Professional fighting is professional fighting. It has evolved since the old days and not just anyone can compete in the big shows anymore. Any BJJ black belt could have done the UFC in the early days and done well. But now, even to be a BJJ fighter in PRIDE or UFC or even KOTC you have to be a tough athlete who crosstrains as well. And anyone who trains BJJ is still light years beyond the realm of TMA's. The TMA's never proved anything in the early UFC's when it just style vs style.
But for fighting a bigger, stronger opponent and defeating them because of the skill you have in your art, BJJ is still the best thing to know. The only tough karate and TKD black belts out there also happen to be 6'2", 230 lbs. You don't have to be built like that to be proficient at BJJ.
Most of the world's population doesn't follow the MMA scene and BJJ will always be a great thing to train in.
I'm not a BJJ jockrider but it has it's place in both MMA and self defense.

[TylerDurden]

Thank you Captain Obvious, yes for a pro fighter a complete game is required. But your crap about BJJ people not knowing this is a laugh. I know 10 BJJ practitioners who also do pro fighting and guess what, they all train stand up on the side. You are a complete troll and it's utterly apparent you are not a purple belt, or any belt, in BJJ.

Rickson trained stand up, Royce trains boxing, look at guys like Nog and BJ Penn, Belfort and Arona. All BJJ guys, all with good to very good stand up games from cross training.

[CKD]

Pstevens can you give us examples of the BJJ people hiding behind there art? Probaly not. BJJ fighters are still among the among the most successful fighters and its kind of hard to hide behind your art if you are out in the ring fighting. I think all the advancments in mma is good for bjj. It forces it to evolve. For example more striking techniques are being added to bjj and more strategies are being made part of bjj. Here is something about bjj evolving http://www.members.aol.com/bjj33/sperry3.htm Only problem I see in bjj right now is the overemphasis on sport bjj. BJJ was originally meant for vale tudo and self defense and the sport aspect was just meant as a way to train safely and the competitions as an an intermediate step to vale tudo. Sperry tells about this problem in this article http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives...an98/fail.html

[pstevens]

Let's put it this way... A 16 year blue belt that is 150 lb isn't going to beat up a 6' 230lb male kickboxer in a real fight... Something I've witnessed personally. If BJJ was the wonder pill you all claim it to be, then my granny should be able to learn it and defend herself against anyone. In a real fight, the stronger, better conditioned and more athletic individual usually wins. Size helps too.

CKD, you're not really making sense... If BJJ is the X Factor of MMA, then why do people who have only trained in it for several years or months, able to defeat BJJ Black Belts who have been doing it all their lives? Go to local NHB events, or watch the undercard fights of King of the Cage... You see wrestlers and strikers who trained submissions wrestling or BJJ several months and they end up kicking the BJJ purple belts ass... Why? Because it's all about athleticism. The better athlete is stronger, more agile and a better fighter.

You take any local blue belt BJJ in this country and he won't last against a professional fighter from other disciplines... Simply because, it's about athleticism and fighting prowess. I have a blue belt in BJJ... I've been doing it for nearly 7 years now... I can't beat my training partner in the ring. He's been a wrestler who only has a few years of submissions training. The only time I can make him tap is when we're doing strictly BJJ... And even then, it's hard, because he's so much stronger. Seriously, you don't buy into the idea that strength doesn't matter.

I read Roy Harris stating that a brown belt should be able to hold a person down without use of their hands or with little or no effort. That's ridiculous and has never happened before, except within a BJJ environment.

You say BJJ guys don't hide behind their art... Other than the Gracies and a select few that don't teach, we have tons of Black Belts who DON'T fight professionally. They've done sport BJJ which isn't fighting. Doing Sport BJJ doesn't make you automatically a good fighter either... Look at Wallid Ishmael. Now, all you need a BB and you're set. You can tap out that 6'5" 280lb athlete in your class, but if you guys went head-to-head in real fighting... I'd put my money on him.

Sport BJJ isn't a problem... The problem is that people expected all these Brasilian legends to do well in the World Arena. And now, with more and more people doing BJJ, you're gonna get more of the same. CKD, BJJ was originally meant for VT and self-defense? I don't think so.. Vale Tudo is a sport. Ever been to Brasil? Gangs, or hoodlums as they call them there, hang out in numbers... The last thing you want to do is grapple with 5 armed assailants. As I've said, Sport BJJ isn't the problem... The problem is that BJJ is getting overflooded with good and bad athletes.

[pstevens]

While we're at it, let me just tackle this idea of BJJ self-defense. I've gone through every Gracie publication and haven't found anything that says that Helio got into street fights or was attacked and successfully used certain techniques. All the techniques he tested were done in the gym or through sanctioned fights. Even if they were fights in the street, they were all one-on-one with limited or no rules, with a number of people there to secure Helio from life-threatening danger. Most importantly, Helio agreed to or looked for those fights. That's not self-defense.

Self-defense is when you're being assaulted against your own will. When you aren't aware it's coming until it's too late. When someone has stalked you down with the intent of bodily harm. This is NOT what happened to Helio. In Helio's case, people came to him, or he went to them and engaged in a one-on-one fight. The fighter's approached each other and Helio was able to do his thing. This is great if you're training for combat sports, but it's not self-defense training.

[Thai Bri]

pstevens - I'm no BJJ Groupie, but I DO think that the Gracies dragged the martial arts out of fantasy and into the real world.

Sure, of course people are now beating them every now and then, BUT THATS ONLY BECAUSE THE GRACIES RAISED EVERYBODIES GAME!

Tosser.

[CKD]

LOL at PSstevens. Can you name the tourneys and competitors where the bjj bluebelts are getting beat by people with little sub training. I don't think you have ever been to Brazil Stevens. If you have you probaly know that there is a high chance of getting attacked. You talk about all this junk about how dangerous Brazil is and then say that the Gracies were never attacked? I can give you a few stories about the Gracies in streetfights. Yes I think that blue belt might win the fight against the big kickboxer. The kickboxer will probaly have no clue how to defend a takedown and the bjj practicioner will probaly be on top pounding away. I bet your granny could defend herself a lot better with BJJ than learning boxing and trading blows with a young guy. You say the stronger fighter will always win in vale tudo. Do you think Royce was stronger than all those fighters in the Octagon? Or how about Nog he tapped Coleman did you think Nog was stronger? If art doesn't matter than if there were too of me and one took Tai Chi and the other took muay thai who would you think would win? Also you spout of about how BJJ was made for sport, did you know that Rickson trains for multiple opponents? He actually has succeeded. But people have start training it that way in favor of sport jiu-jitsu. You also talk about BJJ people getting blackbelts without competing in vt only in sport. Tell me is vale tudo something that is required in any art? The blackbelt who has not fought vale tudo professionaly still has a good chance on the street. Once again tell me the fighters and the events that have been losing.

[CKD]

I have found PSstevens secret identity! Here is him fighting and usinghis fetal technique http://www.ettishfetalfighting.8m.com/

[Tom Yum]

Ettish got taken down by that guys arm curl motion.....(can't seem to find the appropriate smiley face for that one)

[pstevens]

The bottomline is that doing BJJ doesn't translate into being able to fight. BJJ translate into being able to grapple in a grappling situation. The Gracies learned to fight by combining arts, not dismissing them... yet, they went out and said that their grappling art could defeat any other art. I find that ironic.

So far CKD, hasn't provided any credible rebuttal for my statements, so I'll have to accept that he's still living in a fantasy world. I guess every blue belt in the world is a dangerous predator... Including myself. Wait a minute, I'm a good grappler, but I can't fight worth shiet... So what does that mean? The Rickson Gracie Association must be mad at me.

[CKD]

The bottomline is that doing BJJ doesn't translate into being able to fight. BJJ translate into being able to grapple in a grappling situation. The Gracies learned to fight by combining arts, not dismissing them... yet, they went out and said that their grappling art could defeat any other art. I find that ironic.

So far CKD, hasn't provided any credible rebuttal for my statements, so I'll have to accept that he's still living in a fantasy world. I guess every blue belt in the world is a dangerous predator... Including myself. Wait a minute, I'm a good grappler, but I can't fight worth shiet... So what does that mean? The Rickson Gracie Association must be mad at me.

LOL. You haven't provided anything credible at all and haven't said anything on why my statements are wrong. Can you direct me to the interviews were the Gracies said there style could beat anyone? because according to the blackbelt issue I have Rorion"We are not invincible. One good punch is all it takes to knock one of us out." Stop trying to change the subject also. Please show me the events and fighters in which a credible bjj fighter is getting beat all the time. Why aren't my arguments credible? You seem to just be saying that because you can't come up with anything. If you can't answer those questions then you should stop posting. I think it really funny how he is making all these stories of a bjj stylist getting beat up. First it was him and know its a kickboxer. He is like a more boring version of Sherwinc.

[pstevens]

LOL. You haven't provided anything credible at all and haven't said anything on why my statements are wrong. Can you direct me to the interviews were the Gracies said there style could beat anyone? because according to the blackbelt issue I have Rorion"We are not invincible. One good punch is all it takes to knock one of us out." Stop trying to change the subject also. Please show me the events and fighters in which a credible bjj fighter is getting beat all the time. Why aren't my arguments credible? You seem to just be saying that because you can't come up with anything. If you can't answer those questions then you should stop posting. I think it really funny how he is making all these stories of a bjj stylist getting beat up. First it was him and know its a kickboxer. He is like a more boring version of Sherwinc.

You've missed the entire point. The point is that BJJ gets beat just like everyone else. That's why they've had to learn striking to get back into the game. Your argument is basically supporting my point.

You seem to imply that just because one does BJJ, he's unbeatable... That couldn't be further from the truth. BJJ doesn't make you unbeatable, you do.

Again, if BJJ is the X FACTOR, then WHY is it that Dan Hendersen can KO Renzo who has years of BJJ knowledge compared to Dan?

How does Sakuraba defeat Royce, having never studied BJJ?

These people haven't studied BJJ all their lives, yet they won against the very founders of BJJ... So how is my logic flawed? Please explain...

The fact that BJJ has beaten people is not at question... If BJJ is the determining factor in a fight, then the person with more BJJ experience should always win... That isn't true at all. Therefore, your point is illogical and a farse.

[pstevens]

Don't run away CKD,

I just want you to answer this question. You said yourself that BJJ is the core of MMA... That would mean that the determing factor of each fight depends on how well they knew BJJ.

So here's the question: How do BJJ guys lose to people who have less experience in BJJ?