Tire of Judo vs BJJ threads...

[ChiThrower]

Mine too.....

[Ronson]

Hey Jaguar Wong thanks for the link - when I quoted "Cobra-Kai," it was a "karate Kid" reference. In fact I do remember hearing about it in Vegas. I apologize for the confusion .

To pstevens,

On this forum, I welcome and enjoy intellectual debates re: MA and BJJ (CKD and a few others can attest to it). What I don't have tolerance for are threads disguised as trolls - hence the sharpness in tone and the flaming you are receiving.

Instead of coherently responding and expanding on your ideas, your responses are not directed at the points of contention and leave me and others readers disappointed in your inability to appropriately defend and support your ideas and opinions. Instead you resort to misdirection and childlike-comebacks equivalent to what my teenage sister would say,"Yeah so, you're stupid!"

Ronson:
I didn't know this forum was up for a lecture, damn us BJJ'ers have been bad. Is there some legion of "Cobra-Kai BJJ'ers" where you live that have done you wrong. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that most BJJ'ers are good, law-abiding, respectful people. We all don't think we are the shite. We show respect when we willingly enter a dojo and choose not to enter dojo's we don't respect (McDojo's like TKD, just kidding...am I? )

pstevens:
"And I suppose this is the height of your intellectualism... Not impressive."

Ronson:
-WTF? My original response is the height of my sarcasm. Learn to identify and recognize it.

I agree with you that BJJ is not fighting, nor is it MMA. BUT with respectable BJJ skills, it will allow you to kick some ass on the street because Joe Public will most likely have little to no skill in fighting (a 'brawler" if you will).

I've got a little over 2 years (off and on over the last 6 years) of grappling experience and even I know I can kick some a$$ (notice I said some a$$ and not anyone's a$$). How do I know? Oh yeah, it's because I've gotten into fights and have used my grappling/submission skills (winning sometimes and other times saving my a$$ from a beatdown and allowing to walk home with mostly a badly bruised ego) - but hey no one has to believe me because this is the internet, but for all you guys who grew up in a poor/middle class, blue-collar neighborhood knows, that fighting and a fighter's mentality of maintaining respect and saving face in the midst of a challenge or an afront to your reputation is very real (an adolescent, macho perspective in nature now that I think of it, but very real while growing up).

psteven, neither of us is retarded. To be retarded indicates we are limited in our ability to progress in our thinking and skills. You are just ignorant and not quite mature enough to contribute well thought out arguments (that's OK, you'll get there as you get older - you are young right?) that elicits intelligable responses (that's why you get challenged and flamed alot - haven't you noticed that? consider yourself lucky this thread isn't on BULLSHIDO). To be ignorant means you have the potential to progress and mature in your thinking. However with 7 years of BJJ and you still can't see yourself kicking some a$$ - then my friend, your BJJ skills are retarded.

[IPON]

fighting and a fighter's mentality of maintaining respect and saving face in the midst of a challenge or an afront to your reputation is very real (an adolescent, macho perspective in nature now that I think of it, but very real while growing up).

Its the circumstance of teh area and I agree very real and Macho and can be very adult (not just as kids).....a persons rep mean everything

[sirmattu]

has anyone noticed the people who do bjj on this thread think they're the shit? nice thread.

[Tant01]

I agree with the BJJ vs Judo threads. They are basically the same thing with different emphasis. If you look at old Kosen Judo vids you will see many techniques that are suppossedly invented by some Brazilian being done by some 1,000 year old Japanese guy. But Kano did intend for his style to be self defense and he did not take out the dangerous elements such as leg locks that we thought he would. Here is an article on that matter. http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

That article was webbed years ago by Mark Tripp. It has been reproduced many times without due credit to the author who is a 9 Dan in Jujitsu and recently promoted to 6 Dan in Kodokan Judo. It's safe to say the source is reliable

[Tant01]

Wow... That was a good article. I'm also of the opinion that BJJ is merely Judo that evolved in another culture and NOT jujistu... As I've said before, contrary to what the Brasilians say, that BJJ came from India, BJJ came from Judo and developed into what it is today. Even Judo IS NOT jujitsu! Judo is an art that came about from aspects of jujitsu.

That's not just your opinion, it's a fact. Judo Coach (AKA M. Tripp) has a standing challenge to anyone that can name a technique specific to BJJ/GJJ that is not in the old Kodokan Judo. If you like I can provide you with a link to the site.

Thanks CKD for moving that link over here where it's appreciated!

[ParisGreen]

I've been taught BJJ and Judo simultaneously. There are valuable things to learn from each art. I've used some Judo throws to surprise BJJ tournament opponents, however a well taught student will have already been given a Judo base to his training, since many BJJ takedowns are based on, if not complete replications of Judo techniques. The real advantage depends on the fighter, his skill and technique, physical fitness, and his experience with different situations that may arise during combat.

[ParisGreen]

Judo is the father of Jiu-Jitsu. They're are many different schools and styles of the art of Jiu-Jitsu, which in turn was the father of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido, as well as another art which escaping my memory right now. Who was first seems to emphasize some sort of elitimism argument which is pretty silly to begin with. Good Martial artists incorporate anything useful and tweek techniques so that they become the most effective in combat.

[IPON]

Judo is the father of Jiu-Jitsu. They're are many different schools and styles of the art of Jiu-Jitsu, which in turn was the father of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido, as well as another art which escaping my memory right now. Who was first seems to emphasize some sort of elitimism argument which is pretty silly to begin with. Good Martial artists incorporate anything useful and tweek techniques so that they become the most effective in combat.

Well Judo is not the father of any JJ I think that is the point. It is not about what is better BJJ vs Judo or who was first per se it is an attempt to accurately understand the history and truth of both styles I think that would be important for any practioner to (want to) know it does not mean people should change their training or judo ppl should run to a BJJ or a BJJ stylist run to a judo gym ....that would be silly.

[Ronson]

pstevens:
"I keep hearing BJJ people brag about going to Judo gyms and tapping out black belts, etc... So let me just address this situation one last time."

- Please, please, please let this be your last BJJ troll. Do you promise to address this situation one last time? Oh I hope you keep your promise. Boy, a man can dream can't I?

Just kidding pstevens...no I'm not.

OK you win, BJJ is not a complete system (really? ahh shucks!), all BJJ blue belts suck balls and are not the shite, we'll stop are never-ending bragging about how we never lose in a streetfight, and we will show the utmost respect next time we step into a another martials arts gym (thanks for telling us to do so, otherwise us arrogant BJJ shiteheads would have kept walking into other dojo's challenging everyone to a vale tudo fight and running around waving Brazil's flag).

[Thai Bri]

So, which is better then?

[wardancer]

I keep hearing BJJ people brag about going to Judo gyms and tapping out black belts, etc... So let me just address this situation one last time.
So the next time you vist a karate,Muay Thai or judo gym, I'd adise you show some humility.

Hum,
I still have to see a BJJ guy tap out a Judo BB with my own eyes.
At our BJJ tournament, some Judo guys took part and I must say they did very well.
For the humility part, well that is sad that some BJJ people keep braging about all the publicity that has been created by BJJ professionels.
After, all that publicity about the BJJ being the 'ultimate' MA started as a advertising/marketing tools by BJJ professionels because afterall they make a living of teaching BJJ. Advertising their skills and schools is vital if they are going to make some money (bring the bacon home!).
It is just sad that you must witness some losers acting and bragging about it like nobody business.
For e.g if somebody uses some famous BJJ guy pictures on his advertisment for the local ad/newspaper, that famous BJJ can just walk in and ask for money (like a form a affiliation) because he is using somebody's image/pictures to promote his own club.
But then most MA styles do the same kind of bragging anyway.

[CKD]

That's not just your opinion, it's a fact. Judo Coach (AKA M. Tripp) has a standing challenge to anyone that can name a technique specific to BJJ/GJJ that is not in the old Kodokan Judo. If you like I can provide you with a link to the site.

Thanks CKD for moving that link over here where it's appreciated!

Can you provide the link? I have been searching on goolgle for his site but I couldn't find it. Besides that I think I have a few techniques that are not part of judo that are a part of bjj. I think Gene Simco also tells how it is http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/news_archive_0603.shtml The one thing I disagree with is that judo being a sportive style. It was meant for sf but the Olympics changed that.

[CKD]

Hum,
I still have to see a BJJ guy tap out a Judo BB with my own eyes.
At our BJJ tournament, some Judo guys took part and I must say they did very well.
For the humility part, well that is sad that some BJJ people keep braging about all the publicity that has been created by BJJ professionels.
After, all that publicity about the BJJ being the 'ultimate' MA started as a advertising/marketing tools by BJJ professionels because afterall they make a living of teaching BJJ. Advertising their skills and schools is vital if they are going to make some money (bring the bacon home!).
It is just sad that you must witness some losers acting and bragging about it like nobody business.
For e.g if somebody uses some famous BJJ guy pictures on his advertisment for the local ad/newspaper, that famous BJJ can just walk in and ask for money (like a form a affiliation) because he is using somebody's image/pictures to promote his own club.
But then most MA styles do the same kind of bragging anyway.

Which belt division did they enter and what was there judo rank? Did they win anything?

[pstevens]

I agree with you that BJJ is not fighting, nor is it MMA. BUT with respectable BJJ skills, it will allow you to kick some ass on the street because Joe Public will most likely have little to no skill in fighting (a 'brawler" if you will).

Please explain to me how someone goes from getting on their knees on a mat, shaking hands with another classmate and then engaging in a friendly roll translates into a some pyscho who attacks you without warning while you're not looking? So yeah, you can say with some BJJ skills, I'd beat the average joe in a fight where we square off, but what if he doesn't fight that way? What if like most assailants, his intentions are concealed until he has the right opportune moment? If you had any inkling of self-defense, you would have addressed this... Fighting is NOT merely two people facing off in a skilled match... Although that can be the scenario, it's very unlikely... Most assailants have a reason and purpose — to strike at the right moment with the utmost force.

I've got a little over 2 years (off and on over the last 6 years) of grappling experience and even I know I can kick some a$$ (notice I said some a$$ and not anyone's a$$). How do I know? Oh yeah, it's because I've gotten into fights and have used my grappling/submission skills (winning sometimes and other times saving my a$$ from a beatdown and allowing to walk home with mostly a badly bruised ego) - but hey no one has to believe me because this is the internet, but for all you guys who grew up in a poor/middle class, blue-collar neighborhood knows, that fighting and a fighter's mentality of maintaining respect and saving face in the midst of a challenge or an afront to your reputation is very real (an adolescent, macho perspective in nature now that I think of it, but very real while growing up).

The FACT is you only believe you can kick ass and nothing more... I know guys who have been taking 2 lessons a week for the past 5 years... They're great grapplers. But even some of them have admitted that they would get killed in a NHB fight because they can't punch or kick effectively. Some guys, like myself, can't take a punch. I used to box, but quit when I realized I have a glass jaw. So yeah, if each time I got into a fight, we square off and I got the takedown, ofcourse I would have an advantage... But that's not a REAL fight. In a real fight, a guy can walk right up to me and land a sucker punch and it's over.

psteven, neither of us is retarded. To be retarded indicates we are limited in our ability to progress in our thinking and skills. You are just ignorant and not quite mature enough to contribute well thought out arguments (that's OK, you'll get there as you get older - you are young right?) that elicits intelligable responses (that's why you get challenged and flamed alot - haven't you noticed that? consider yourself lucky this thread isn't on BULLSHIDO). To be ignorant means you have the potential to progress and mature in your thinking. However with 7 years of BJJ and you still can't see yourself kicking some a$$ - then my friend, your BJJ skills are retarded.

Maybe you should read up on figurative speech.... And Bushido... Been there... There's a lot of BS-ing going on, but at least most people understand real fighting from fantasy.

I get challenged alot on HERE, because I say things you can't stand to hear. Things you don't want to accept. Someone says TKD sucks, and everyone says that's fine... I say BJJ isn't real fighting and you idiots go crazy... Here's some news for you... Before BJJ, just about everyone did TKD...

But to answer your question. In 7 years of BJJ I learned: Positions, transitions, takedowns, submissions, escapes, submission counters and takedown defense.

In 7 years of BJJ, I DID NOT learn: the psychology of a fighting and how to mentally deal with a real life-threatening situation. Diagnosis of a street fight and assault. How to recognize, react to or subdue an altercation. How to deal with armed assailants. How to deal with harrasment of any nature. The list goes on... Because there's an uncertainty that goes without saying when you talk about real situations. I don't profess to understand most of these things, although I've recently began studying self-defense.

For this reason, I'm not a self-proclaimed fighter... I'm a sport BJJ competitor. If for some reason, I'm attacked and my BJJ saves me, great... If Judo saves me great... If TKD saves me, great.. If I have to fight, I do what I can... For me, a brick to the head is fighting, not rolling on the mat and contemplating that this is what I would do to someone.