Best Base for MMA

[CKD]

There has been a lot of talk about what is the best base for mma so I made my top 3. Remeber this is an opinion that I made from my experience and others. What you probaly will notice is that my top 3 arts are mainly grappling systems with basic striking. I have that because I believe a grappling base is the best to start. Depending at what level of mma you are competing you will probaly at least need a purple belt BJJ level of knowledge. It is easier to add striking to that grappling base then it is to learn striking and then having to train a few years to get to the purple belt level. Here is my top 3 in no particular order.
1. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu
Fighters with a BJJ base continue to be one of the most effective fighters. Of course the school you go to matters as well. If the school only practices the sport aspect of BJJ you will have to make more adjustments. But if you go to a school that emphasizes the vale tudo aspect then you will have an easier time. For example Reylson Gracie emphasizes self defense and vt. His son Rodrigo can strike better than most of the Gracies despite having trained striking for a less amount of time because his Father emphasized the vale tudo aspect.
2.Judo
In the early days judo did not have much reprensantation or recognition in mma. But now players like Ogawa, Oyama(He probaly would do better against lower level fighters but he has a bad record because he always fights big naems) and Yoshida are showing just how effective judo can be. Yoshida has gotten closer to beating Silva than anyone has for a while. If you go to a school that practices the old style of judo than you should have better knowledge of ne waza and striking. I actually saw Karo Parisyan using a atemi looking strike in one of his matches. Gene Lebell and Gokor have been producing good judo fighters for mma and we have not seen the last of them.
3.Sambo
In the earlier days Oleg was pretty much the only Sambo represenative and he did a good job of representing it. Besides his plain touphness.(He one time had his ankle broken by a submssion in a sambo match and he didn't tap somehow hobbled up and knocked his opponent out with O-soto-gari) Nowadays the Russian Top Team has produced fierce Sambo fighters like Fedor. His positioning skill is tremendous allowing him to deliver brutal strikes on the ground.

Now most people will ask "What about wrestling?" I have considered wrestling but I found these arts better and here is why.
1. No submssions. To be successful someone has to know how to use and defend subs. Although a wrestler could easily adapt it to his game it is not part of the art.
2.Lack of positions. A lot of time in mma matches are spent in the guard. Wrestling does not have the guard and would not be able to deal with sweeps, subs and other things that are not part of the art.
3.Lack of a combative aspect. All the arts above have the sportive aspect, but they also have the combative aspect which includes how to defend against strikes and how to use them as well as how to close the distance. Wrestling does not have strikes and does not have a combative aspect.
4. This does not mean wrestling is useless. I just find the arts above are better but a wrestlers take downs are a improtant asset and once a wrestler learns subs and how to use and defend strikes they will be a dangerous opponent. Just take a look at Kerr.
Best supplements to the base.
1.Muay thai
Does not take long to learn the basics and it works. Need to know anything else?
2. Boxing
Same as muay thai.

Remeber this is all my opinion so don't flame me. I would like to hear everyones opinions though.

[Kirves]

I pretty much agree. Though I'd definitely add wrestling-type pummeling-drills. Not that I actually know anything about these things.

[Tom Yum]

Yeah, I agree on the base styles, but I think you underemphasized muay thai and boxing.

Can't underestimate good stand up skills and clinch control.

[CKD]

Boxing and muay thai are defenitely a must have. What I meant is these arts are a better base, meaning if a person wanted to enter mma and has never trained before, I would suggest taking one of the top 3 arts first and then adding muay thai and wrestling.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Yeah, I agree that it's better to concentrate on grappling and then supplement with striking.
There are lots of exceptions and interesting cases too though. Guys who do mma style training that incorporates everything from day one. Also, Silva is interesting because he is a muay thai boxer who trains bjj.
Wrestlers who are aware of subs are still dangerous. Grounding and pounding is still an effective for modern mma.
I don't know about Ogawa and Oyama, I don't think they've really proved that much.
Henderson actually fought a good fight against Silva. He does have boxing skills and sub ability too, but he's mainly a wrestler. Guys like him, Couture, Frye, Randleman, and a bunch of others have managed to do very well from a wrestling background. But maybe it's more because they're amazingly strong, conditioned, and adaptable as individuals than because of wrestling itself. Since wrestling is such a bigger sport than bjj or judo or sambo, the standouts who come into mma from wrestling are more likely to be amazing athletes.
For striking I think that shorin ryu karate is the best art to study for mma.

[CKD]

Ogawa is suppossed to fight Nog I think. But so far Ogawa has a 7-0-0 record and is really good. He has armbarred goodridge. Why would Shorin Ryu Karate be good for striking?

[nwtogame]

OK (ok maybe just to fire things up a lil) but I'm going to decide and go against the grain. Now I'm new to all this so I need and appreciate your opinions. I have some time before I can beign classes so I figure i might as well research what I can about all styles and go from there. As of late I've been doing the forum thing and reading what ppls views are. Right now I have to admit though that I'm thinking a base of muay thai with basic knowledge of BJJ would be the best bet. Maybe I'm kind of biased though cause I used to box and still love to strike (spar). I don't see the advantage of being a good grappler if someone is very good striker and you can never get a hold of him or if you do it doesn't last long enough to finihs because of him close distance striking. I do really have respect for BJJ though and will prolly undoubtly be taking that as well but I'm a little confused to where the advantage to grappling over striking is in the MMA ring? I have almost sealed the deal in my mind that in a real life situation I don't want to be grappler, lol, most fights now a days are rarely one on one and who want to be on the ground when facing multiple opponents if you don't have to? All opposing/for opinions very welcome. One more thing if you come on here saying that BJJ is the only way to go and the only thing you KNOW is BJJ you already too biased thus negating your opinion (again my opinion).

[CKD]

OK (ok maybe just to fire things up a lil) but I'm going to decide and go against the grain. Now I'm new to all this so I need and appreciate your opinions. I have some time before I can beign classes so I figure i might as well research what I can about all styles and go from there. As of late I've been doing the forum thing and reading what ppls views are. Right now I have to admit though that I'm thinking a base of muay thai with basic knowledge of BJJ would be the best bet. Maybe I'm kind of biased though cause I used to box and still love to strike (spar). I don't see the advantage of being a good grappler if someone is very good striker and you can never get a hold of him or if you do it doesn't last long enough to finihs because of him close distance striking. I do really have respect for BJJ though and will prolly undoubtly be taking that as well but I'm a little confused to where the advantage to grappling over striking is in the MMA ring? I have almost sealed the deal in my mind that in a real life situation I don't want to be grappler, lol, most fights now a days are rarely one on one and who want to be on the ground when facing multiple opponents if you don't have to? All opposing/for opinions very welcome. One more thing if you come on here saying that BJJ is the only way to go and the only thing you KNOW is BJJ you already too biased thus negating your opinion (again my opinion).

If you are fighting mma you will need at least a purple belts knowledge. If you go in there with only very basic knowledge you will get creamed unless your fighting some untrained idiot. I have done a lot more than BJJ. I have done muay thai but from my experience and from people I know experiences. It is better to start with it. Depending on what level you are fighting on, you can get a purple belt in bjj and train a year of mt and probaly do o.k. But the other way around, several years of mt and then just doing a year of BJJ the result will probaly be different. You will probaly be taken down by a more experienced grappler and get tapped. It is better to get the several years of grappling out of the way first. It is much easier to close the distance and grapple then to stay away and strike. I doubt you will find a person you can't touch and they keep you away. Especially the primary a striker. The really ironic thing is that people skilled in grappling are more qualified to keep the fight standing and strike then the striker. Here is a drill you can do, get a friend and have him charge forward for a takedown or clinch and you try to stay away. Even though this is a thread about mma I will answer your multiple opponent thing. A striker faces the same disadvantages as a grappler. Actually the grappler is more qualified to keep the fight standing in a multiple opponent situation because they practice breaking out of clinches and defending takedowns more. While a primarily a striker would easily get taken down and stepped on. The funny thing is that I have had to fight multiple opponents and I used my grappling skills more than my striking. It was impossible to stay away and strike so I spent a lot of time defending takedowns and I ussually used a body as a shield and I found doing a simple takedown on the opponent and then attacking the other was a much better strategy than trying to defend the takedowns and keep away and strike the person while the other one was hitting the back of my head. It was better to simply take one down and then you only have one to deal with until the other gets up, it was much better than trying to strike and defend takedowns leaving the others to hit you because they are still standing.

[nwtogame]

Hey CKD great post made a lot of sense to me. So what your saying is that because grappling takes longer to learn and be comfortable with it would be a better base and then go on from there? Great thread. What you said about multiple opponents makes sense also but I think that depends on the idividual although undoubtley you need to be knowledgeable of grappling to avoid the takedown. As far as clinches go from what I've been reading MT training spends a lot of time practicing and fighting from the clinche. If I can clinche with someone and then knock them out I'd rather do that than have to worry about them getting back up. Then move on to next opponent if necessary. Thats a much more debatable and there are too many variables to get into though. One question for you tough......How long can the average expect to be in training before reaching purple belt. I'm not talking half assed I'm talking a few hours a day practice, everyday. One more quest. I'm a bit older (although in good shape) thought I'd plug myself there, lol, and yes fighting shape bacause despite not being able to join the MMA yet Ive still been using by boxing background to further my fitness anyhow.....How old is too old to start and then expect to be able to compete in MMA event? I'll be 25 in a couple of weeks and I've thought about this for at least 5 yrs and I'm at a point where I have the time and $$ to do it if I choose? I'm asking if its a reality tough? Your not going to disappoint so please be real here.

[Ronson]

Hey CKD, your response to nwtogame was top notch.

To nwtogame I have some questions and answers:

What are you training goals? Self defence, MMA, or both? If it's MMA, I don't need to add to what CKD has already said.

If it's for S.D., I think your already in a pretty good position. Whether it be a grappling/submission art or a stand-up style youv'e mentioned, both have a leg up on the majority of people in M.A. and Joe Public - Our advantage is that we train with fully resisting opponents/partners (we may not always train exactly to real street fighting situations, but we use elements that closely resemble it so that we may continue to train w/o serious injury most of the time) and the second advantage is that we train, period.

I'm pretty much the opposite of you in that I prefer the ground game more over the stand-up (while acknowledging and giving props. to the importance of striking and having every intention to working on it when my ground game is up to snuff). I just have more fun training that way and I suggest if you have more fun in stand-up, do it more. Training doesn't always have to be so serious with the only goal of becoming a "killer." Trust me dude, with solid stand-up skills coupled with a basic/fundamental ground game, you'll be more than ready for S.D. (and vice versa).

With multiples, that's a heated debate and my opinion is that there are so, so many variables involved (known and unknown) that it would be difficult to properly train for it. I say it's easier and funner to train at what you know and enjoy doing. I've been in a multiple attacker/brawl and it's friggin' chaos, so my only advice to you is to stay off the ground (if down get up!), use the skills you have, go balls out, watch your "6," and hope that luck is on your side.

Nice talkin'

[nwtogame]

Thanx for the reply. To asnwer you question though my questions are really all based on competing. I've already went through the stages in my life where I liked (loved) to streetfight. Now i realize that was just ignorant and a macho thing. The more I get into Martial Arts the less that I feel I ever will be into a another street altercation mostly due to the reason I never backed out of fights was because of ego or "little man syndrome" the better I get and the better boxer I became I never felt I had to prove that to anyone. I can rarely ever see myself actually NEEDING to use skills like that on the street, not to say that it won't happen but I AM one of those bulldog ppl that if you were to pick on you would be very suprised what you got yourself into and be in trouble cause I don't care (or I should say fear) you. So yes I would one day LOVE and want to compete, well..........cause I think that I could be competitive under the right teacher. I already have the nutrition and training and discipline to do these religously I am now just needing a coach or someone to take me under there supervision if you will. I'm not saying that I think I'm ready now by any means or ever will be a star. I just enjoy it(sport fighting) and I've always been athletic faring pretty well at whatever I compete at and train and go after especially. I just moved to an area that is prevelant in sport fighting (Ca) and have the $$ and time to put into it to decide and see if I have what it takes. I will tell you that if and when I do compete I'm going balls to the wall cause I don't compete in things that I'm not trying to win so......I'll keep everyone updates cause I WILL be starting my BJJ and MT practicing/training ASAP. So maybe someone can learn from a beginner and see the whole story as it unfolds so to speak. I was also curious if to there is kinda a age that ppl tend to be "out of their leagues" if you know what I mean? I'll be 25 in a couple of weeks and I think and see that as being my only downfall (is I didn't go after this earlier instead of boxing) is that a problem? Keep in my mind that I'm talking just getting in and competing at the ameture level to begin with naturally?

[Mr. Miyagi]

CKD, it was a joke about shorin ryu.

[Ronson]

nwtogame,

In my opinion, 25 yrs. old is not too old or borderline. As long as you have the will, desire, and ability to go balls out I'm sure you'll reach your potential. Your not starting off as a complete n00b and it sounds like you have some pretty good hands. You've also got some street fighting experience which goes a long way with having a warrior's/competitor's mentality and the ability to take give/take hits, not to mention being able to deal with the pressure cooker fighting is. You could potentially have a competitive career in fighting into your 40s and if ya go balls out, that's alot of hours racked up training, improving, progressing, and evolving. There's alot to say about having maturity and experience on your side.

All the best.

[CKD]

Thanx for the reply. To asnwer you question though my questions are really all based on competing. I've already went through the stages in my life where I liked (loved) to streetfight. Now i realize that was just ignorant and a macho thing. The more I get into Martial Arts the less that I feel I ever will be into a another street altercation mostly due to the reason I never backed out of fights was because of ego or "little man syndrome" the better I get and the better boxer I became I never felt I had to prove that to anyone. I can rarely ever see myself actually NEEDING to use skills like that on the street, not to say that it won't happen but I AM one of those bulldog ppl that if you were to pick on you would be very suprised what you got yourself into and be in trouble cause I don't care (or I should say fear) you. So yes I would one day LOVE and want to compete, well..........cause I think that I could be competitive under the right teacher. I already have the nutrition and training and discipline to do these religously I am now just needing a coach or someone to take me under there supervision if you will. I'm not saying that I think I'm ready now by any means or ever will be a star. I just enjoy it(sport fighting) and I've always been athletic faring pretty well at whatever I compete at and train and go after especially. I just moved to an area that is prevelant in sport fighting (Ca) and have the $$ and time to put into it to decide and see if I have what it takes. I will tell you that if and when I do compete I'm going balls to the wall cause I don't compete in things that I'm not trying to win so......I'll keep everyone updates cause I WILL be starting my BJJ and MT practicing/training ASAP. So maybe someone can learn from a beginner and see the whole story as it unfolds so to speak. I was also curious if to there is kinda a age that ppl tend to be "out of their leagues" if you know what I mean? I'll be 25 in a couple of weeks and I think and see that as being my only downfall (is I didn't go after this earlier instead of boxing) is that a problem? Keep in my mind that I'm talking just getting in and competing at the ameture level to begin with naturally?

MMA is a sport were people can compete for a long time. The # 2 ranked light heavyweight in the UFC is 40 but people tend to go out of there leagues in mid 50s and 60s. But even then there are senior divisions in straight grappling tournaments. A good mma startup I heard was pankration. It is from what I heard a good startup for bigger events. You have the time and money so start training hard. Just another note on crosstraining.Make sure that you concentrate on bringing the phase to your comfort level. For example you said you prefer striking, so when you do grappling keep in mind on how you are going to use that knowledge to neutralize grappling attacks and keep the fight standing. Also on striking for mma I would suggest you use a wider stance so you can defend takedowns and use short, powerful combinations. Doing long combos leave you vunerable for a takedown since it will take longer for you to re-act to it. Do punches to the head and kicks to the legs. You will not have much time before you clinch in mma so working the head is the best since you need to cause as much damge as possobile or get a knockout before you are clinched and do body punches and knees to the body in the clinch to work his body. Low kicks are good because the leave you less vunerable to a takedown. Thise are the differences between striking in mma in comparison to a boxing match. Wish you luck in your future fights.

[jread]

I'll be 25 in a couple of weeks

I will also be 25 in a couple of weeks (July 27th) and sometimes I feel the same way you do..... I feel like it's too late to get started in MMA. I'm glad to hear that it's not