The Creation of MMA

[pstevens]

Everyone should be grateful that the Gracies dispelled the myths of martial arts in UFC, but their intention wasn't to create MMA. What happened was that they created a new beast, they couldn't control and had to bail out until they could understand it.

The original Gracie plan was to promote jiu jitsu. They thought that if they convinced everyone that jiu jitsu could defeat karate, kung-fu and boxing, that the general public would be content to learning jiu jitsu... That's not what happened. People began to realize that true sports fighting went beyond style or techniques. That the key was not just switching your art, but complementing your art with resistance training, conditioning and an understanding of all aspects of the fight. Thus, MMA slowly began to formulate.

[chris davis 200]

i would argue that Bruce lee formulated MMA's before the gracies came onto the scene big time.

He created a collection of mindsets that promoted fitness, experimentation, mixing martial styles to become a complete fighter in all ranges of combat. Surely this is Mixed Martial Arts. Sadley the brilliance that he displayed became systemised as an art by many - which is exactley what he was trying to get away from. Hence today we have modern JKD - a very different beast to the phylosophy of training that Bruce tried to promote.

What i would agree with is that the gracies spurred an interest in Fighting sports and that the creation of MMA's as a fighting sport format was a result of their efforts.

cheers,
Chris

[CKD]

I am not sure what you are saying. The Gracies never created mma, we all know that. MMA goes back to Greek Pankration, challenge matches between kung fu fighters, old muay thai had almost no rules, and kung fu and muay thai fought each other in no holds barred matches. There was also pre queensbary boxing. I heard comments that the Gracies ressurected mma but even thats not true. In the Soviet Union Sambo was being refined in a similar manner bjj was refined. They fought bare knuckle no rules matches. Japans Pancrase had a few non worked matches. Oleg Taktarov had been fighting in these for a long time before the UFC and same with Gokor Chivancyn. Other Russian and former Soviet fighters have been doing this for a long time. It used to be more of an only military competetion but then they slowly allowed other people to enter these. So even the fact that mma fighting came back to life in Brazil is not true because the Soviets have been doing it without there influence. Which led to Sambo fighters recently becoming more succesful in mma because MMA was not new to them. Sambo fighters have been more successful than the bjj fighters recently because the Combat aspect of Sambo is preserved while BJJ is degenarating into a jump into the guard,score a point and stall and start from the knees only sparring . Then finally go into an mma fight and get pounded as you jump into guard or find out that you have neglected your takedowns so much that you can't take the person down. Now if you look at mma you will see most successful bjj based fighters started during the earlier periods and the number of new faces are few. I read an interview by Fedors brother Alexander about the combat Sambo competetions in Russia and he said it was like Pride with a gi on. The purpose of the early UFCs for the Gracies was to popularize BJJ. But I felt they could have gotten better grapplers. They had that Judo slash Jiu-jitsu who was good at throwing but sucked on the ground and I heard they had one Sambo guy, who had no official ranking from what I heard and that he had never entered a single competetion. He trained part time because he owned a movie theater and a resturaunt. But the Gracie did show that grappling was a neglected art that needed to be studied and they popularized BJJ.

[toshiro]

If their goal was to promote BJJ then they did a damn fine job of it. You can't argue with that. Forget what you might think of the Gracies, looks like they are doing pretty well for themselves.

[wardancer]

Everyone should be grateful that the Gracies dispelled the myths of martial arts in UFC, but their intention wasn't to create MMA. What happened was that they created a new beast, they couldn't control and had to bail out until they could understand it.

The original Gracie plan was to promote jiu jitsu. They thought that if they convinced everyone that jiu jitsu could defeat karate, kung-fu and boxing, that the general public would be content to learning jiu jitsu... That's not what happened. People began to realize that true sports fighting went beyond style or techniques. That the key was not just switching your art, but complementing your art with resistance training, conditioning and an understanding of all aspects of the fight. Thus, MMA slowly began to formulate.

I will agree with pstevens on the fact that UFC was created by the Gracies as 'the stepping stone' to promote their MA in the US by using TV as a media.
But I do believe they bail out because they did not want to go down that road.
And good on them for such choice.
Afterall, they are only promoting their own MA.

I have seen the same issue at my BJJ club:
We do have BJJ classes with no gi and sometimes use punching gloves in 'sparring/''rolling' to try/'prove' such BJJ techniques (to see/pratice if BJJ works in such fighting environment like vale tudo) BUT we are not a vale tudo/MMA club, just a BJJ club that try to train applications of BJJ techniques in a vale tudo enviroment.

MMA is a consequence/conclusion/sequel to what the firsts UFC started.
I could think of the BTT, Chute Box as a MMA team/style, definititly not the Gracie Clan (they just out there trying to prove their style works in a MMA event).

But I guess it is no gonna stop some BJJ dudes to be 'mouthing off' their so called 'superiority' in MMA events.

Please note, the Gracies are not doing so well in the MMA events lately!!!

[wardancer]

i would argue that Bruce lee formulated MMA's before the gracies came onto the scene big time.

He created a collection of mindsets that promoted fitness, experimentation, mixing martial styles to become a complete fighter in all ranges of combat. Surely this is Mixed Martial Arts. Sadley the brilliance that he displayed became systemised as an art by many - which is exactley what he was trying to get away from. Hence today we have modern JKD - a very different beast to the phylosophy of training that Bruce tried to promote.

What i would agree with is that the gracies spurred an interest in Fighting sports and that the creation of MMA's as a fighting sport format was a result of their efforts.

cheers,
Chris

Pstevens never said the Gracie invented the MMA.
They did promoted a MMA event (the first UFC) where different MA stylist could fight under one format .
Such event created a huge reaction from people wanting to participate in and watching such events.
The fact that you think Bruce Lee should take the credit for MMA style (MA stylist that are willing to learn different MA in order to counter-balance each MA weakness) has nothing to do with what pstevens was trying to say.

[CKD]

I will agree with pstevens on the fact that UFC was created by the Gracies as 'the stepping stone' to promote their MA in the US by using TV as a media.
But I do believe they bail out because they did not want to go down that road.
And good on them for such choice.
Afterall, they are only promoting their own MA.

I have seen the same issue at my BJJ club:
We do have BJJ classes with no gi and sometimes use punching gloves in 'sparring/''rolling' to try/'prove' such BJJ techniques (to see/pratice if BJJ works in such fighting environment like vale tudo) BUT we are not a vale tudo/MMA club, just a BJJ club that try to train applications of BJJ techniques in a vale tudo enviroment.

MMA is a consequence/conclusion/sequel to what the firsts UFC started.
I could think of the BTT, Chute Box as a MMA team/style, definititly not the Gracie Clan (they just out there trying to prove their style works in a MMA event).

But I guess it is no gonna stop some BJJ dudes to be 'mouthing off' their so called 'superiority' in MMA events.

Please note, the Gracies are not doing so well in the MMA events lately!!!

Everyone knows that the Gracies were trying to promote the there art. Everyone connects BJJ with mma even though there are now some doubts about it being the best style in mma. but the Gracie name can sell just about anything nowadays. I am waiting for my Gracie certified toothbrush so I can have my teeth lean and mean so they won't get knocked out. It includes the Gracie certified toothpaste but I do not know the slogan for that. I do not get the BJJ calling there superiority in mma. Maybe in the early days when few grappling stlyes were represented but nowadays I believe other arts are better. You can check my latest post on the bset base for mma to see which one I think is the bset now and why. But no other fighter really promotes there fighting style through mma like the Gracies. The Russian Top Team can claim how effective Sambo is and how they beat bjj stylists with it and create lots of bad videos and make up excuses for there losses but they don't. The members of the Russian Top Team like Fedor talk about the effectiveness of Sambo in there interviews but they don't go all out promoting it like the Gracies. The Chute Boxe team could claim the same about there blend of BJJ and Muay thai but they don't. If we are to talk about the orgins of mma I do not believe Bruce Lee would be it. I do not believe mma is as a style but a competetion fromat. It has been done as early as the ancient greek. If it was a style then a lot of people could claim to be mma because lots of mas came out of people blending arts.

[pstevens]

If we are to talk about the orgins of mma I do not believe Bruce Lee would be it. I do not believe mma is as a style but a competetion fromat. It has been done as early as the ancient greek. If it was a style then a lot of people could claim to be mma because lots of mas came out of people blending arts.

Ancient Greek Pankration?... Are you serious?... Exactly what do we know of Greek Pankration? It was a type of wrestling competition, probably without any martial arts application. The mongolians have been wrestling for ages, the Okinawans... The Chinese... The Europeans... And it's not necessarily martial arts.

When we speak of MMA, most people understand that to mean the blending of created martial arts systems... Bruce Lee was a key figure, if not the originator, of incorporating different systems.

The first UFC was a MMA tournament, but NONE of the participants were mixed martial artists, in the true sense... Each belonged to their own discipline. NOW, we have MMA combatants who continue to fill in the holes where needed... They don't really claim a specific "style" but a gym or type of fighting like grappling, striking, etc...

[CKD]

Ancient Greek Pankration?... Are you serious?... Exactly what do we know of Greek Pankration? It was a type of wrestling competition, probably without any martial arts application. The mongolians have been wrestling for ages, the Okinawans... The Chinese... The Europeans... And it's not necessarily martial arts.

When we speak of MMA, most people understand that to mean the blending of created martial arts systems... Bruce Lee was a key figure, if not the originator, of incorporating different systems.

The first UFC was a MMA tournament, but NONE of the participants were mixed martial artists, in the true sense... Each belonged to their own discipline. NOW, we have MMA combatants who continue to fill in the holes where needed... They don't really claim a specific "style" but a gym or type of fighting like grappling, striking, etc...

Ancient Greek Pankration was a competetion which allowed all forms of striking and grappling. Victory was won through knockout or submission. There is a statue of a Pankration fighter preforming a juji gatame. There is also pictures and statues of many other techniques that are recognized as martial art techniques. Pankration fighters had to go to academys to learn this fighting art. It combined the Greek sport of boxing and wrestling. I believe we can concur that these were skilled fighters who knew a mixed style rather than just muscular men scrapping. People have been blending martial art systems for a long time its nothing new. Pankration blended boxing and wrestling. Kyoushinkai karate borrows from judo, boxing, karate, and muay thai. Judo blends the Kito and Tenshin'yo style of Jujitsu. Goju Ryu karate includes circular moves from Chinese styles, American Kenpo borrows from Karate, Kung fu and other styles, Kajukenbo is a blend of judo, karate, kung fu, ect. Bruce Lee never came up with the idea of blending martial arts.

[akja]

Greek Pankration was a form of early MMA and it also went on in Rome. Vale Tudo has been around all through the 20th century. MMA is not new, just to Americans and most of the world but by now it's old news.

I don't really like my brother-in-law much but I was trained by him so heres something maybe interesting about early MMA in the USA.

My brother-in-law was trained and competed under Tarow Hayashi in the 1970's. Mr. Hayashi taught and held competions in Free Form Combat back then which he called Kumiuchi.

http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

Prof. T. Hayashi (1976)
What is Free Form Combat...

Martial arts Combat, is the Hybrid off-spring of all the traditional Martial Arts (Fighting Arts). It is the Latest Sport Combat which requires the maximum in skill, stamina, toughness and courage. What the "Indianapolis race Car" is compared to the ordinary "Ford" on the street, might be a sort of analogy.

The difference between Professional Full-Contact Karate and Martial Arts combat is primarily the fact that usually the Karate trained people are not always versed in Judo or grappling arts. Generally in Professional Full contact Karate matches, emphasis is placed on Hand and Foot Techniques in mostly stand up Fighting, with take-downs limited to sweeps. But in "Martial Arts Combat" one can use takedowns, pins, chokes, arm-lock submissions, leg-locks, with the joint, not against it. This is in addition to all standard karate punching, striking, elbow and knee locks.

The Martial Arts is a physical discipline which leads to mental and spiritual discipline. The objective of training is in the perfection of character. To become a professional Full-Contact Karate man or Martial Arts Combatant would be suitable or appealing only to a small percentage of Martial Arts devotees. But there is a place for the professional Sport Combatant, as that can be the example of a superbly conditional Professional.

There is a place for that Professional in the ideals which can be positive instead of negative for elevation of the arts. If one becomes dirty or blood thirsty and disregards the levels of human welfare just to gain fame and money, then it would certainly be negative. If one competes with sportsmanship and honor with Martial-human-welfare and benefit in his heart, then it can be indeed a positive endeavor.

There is no make believe, or fooling oneself in Full Contact Martial Arts Combat. The man who dedicates himself to train and compete will surely become a man among men. The tempering of steel is in the forging. A man who competes, win or lose, most assuredly will grow to be a tougher metal.

Professor Tarow Ty Hayashi,

Shihan-

October 24, 1927-November 5, 2001

[wardancer]

I believe we can concur that these were skilled fighters who knew a mixed style rather than just muscular men scrapping. People have been blending martial art systems for a long time its nothing new. Pankration blended boxing and wrestling. Kyoushinkai karate borrows from judo, boxing, karate, and muay thai. Judo blends the Kito and Tenshin'yo style of Jujitsu. Goju Ryu karate includes circular moves from Chinese styles, American Kenpo borrows from Karate, Kung fu and other styles, Kajukenbo is a blend of judo, karate, kung fu, ect. Bruce Lee never came up with the idea of blending martial arts.

Kyokushin Karate does not combine Judo in their style maybe boxing and muay Thai but not Judo.
Actually, you are not allowed to 'grab' under KO Kyokushin rules.
Which is ironic because its founder Mas Oyama had Judoka experience and fought many challenge against werstern wrestlers (according to the legend)!

Bruce Lee promoted the idea of 'open mind' when it came up to cross training.
Back in the Bruce Lee's days (when oriental MA were becoming popular by movices etc..), people were 'stuck' up about 'sticking' to 1 MA for their rest of their live (and some are still 'stuck-up' about it).
I think that where the saying 'Jack of all trade, master of none' plays so much against Bruce Lee theory about cross-training: I think such theory encouraged people from jumping from 1 MA to another without learning proper basics of each MA they think they have 'trained'.
But I also consider that back in the Bruce Lee time, finding 'qualified' MA instructors was harder than now.

[CKD]

I read about matches between muay thai and Kyoushinkai and the Kyoushinkai competitors used a lot of throws. In one legendary match the Kyoushin used a circle throw to beat the person. I have done Kyoushin and we practiced basic takedowns but we did not use them in competetion.

[wardancer]

I read about matches between muay thai and Kyoushinkai and the Kyoushinkai competitors used a lot of throws. In one legendary match the Kyoushin used a circle throw to beat the person. I have done Kyoushin and we practiced basic takedowns but we did not use them in competetion.

Well, that is my problem with Kyokushin Karate (which I did and enjoyed very much), the founder Mas Oyama was known to 'open challenge' back in his 'marketing' days and also known as a a good judoka so fighting wrestlers was not a problem but his Karate competition format did not include 'grappling'.

[cboog]

Greek Pankration was a form of early MMA and it also went on in Rome. Vale Tudo has been around all through the 20th century. MMA is not new, just to Americans and most of the world but by now it's old news.

I don't really like my brother-in-law much but I was trained by him so heres something maybe interesting about early MMA in the USA.

My brother-in-law was trained and competed under Tarow Hayashi in the 1970's. Mr. Hayashi taught and held competions in Free Form Combat back then which he called Kumiuchi.

http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

Prof. T. Hayashi (1976)
What is Free Form Combat...

Martial arts Combat, is the Hybrid off-spring of all the traditional Martial Arts (Fighting Arts). It is the Latest Sport Combat which requires the maximum in skill, stamina, toughness and courage. What the "Indianapolis race Car" is compared to the ordinary "Ford" on the street, might be a sort of analogy.

The difference between Professional Full-Contact Karate and Martial Arts combat is primarily the fact that usually the Karate trained people are not always versed in Judo or grappling arts. Generally in Professional Full contact Karate matches, emphasis is placed on Hand and Foot Techniques in mostly stand up Fighting, with take-downs limited to sweeps. But in "Martial Arts Combat" one can use takedowns, pins, chokes, arm-lock submissions, leg-locks, with the joint, not against it. This is in addition to all standard karate punching, striking, elbow and knee locks.

The Martial Arts is a physical discipline which leads to mental and spiritual discipline. The objective of training is in the perfection of character. To become a professional Full-Contact Karate man or Martial Arts Combatant would be suitable or appealing only to a small percentage of Martial Arts devotees. But there is a place for the professional Sport Combatant, as that can be the example of a superbly conditional Professional.

There is a place for that Professional in the ideals which can be positive instead of negative for elevation of the arts. If one becomes dirty or blood thirsty and disregards the levels of human welfare just to gain fame and money, then it would certainly be negative. If one competes with sportsmanship and honor with Martial-human-welfare and benefit in his heart, then it can be indeed a positive endeavor.

There is no make believe, or fooling oneself in Full Contact Martial Arts Combat. The man who dedicates himself to train and compete will surely become a man among men. The tempering of steel is in the forging. A man who competes, win or lose, most assuredly will grow to be a tougher metal.

Professor Tarow Ty Hayashi,

Shihan-

October 24, 1927-November 5, 2001

Your Bruce Lee quote in your signature says it all. Too many people are concerned about names, in my opinion it's all fighting. I remember when I was younger and someone was about to get into a fight, people wouldn't say "oh he a good boxer or good grappler", but just a plain ol good fighter.