Systema

[stephen1712]

training

Well, my first post on deluxe. In answer to the gentleman who wanted to know about sparring with a systema practioner, I first attended a systema seminar shortly after it arrived in the uk. The weekend itself was camping on a little island and was taught by a 5th dan in ninjitsu, at the time I was studying thai boxing and tried the everything that I knew at the time to land a blow on the guy. I then went through the rather unpleasant experience of having everything that I thought I knew fall apart on me.
Some of the posters have commented that systema can look somewhat unrealistic and I agree it does, which added to the shock because it looked exactly the same when the guy was taking me apart. My brain devided into three distinct voices, one said "this can't be happening", another said "this is happening, do something", the third was yelling at the second to shut up because I was doing what little I could to resist and just ending up in a bigger heap.
Yes there is some non-contact work involved, I don't expect anyone to believe in it without experiencing it, but it worked on me and on everyone else there.
For the sake of completeness I'll mention two other things that made an inpression on me, other than fists and feet obviously. While we were there we were sharing the island with a bunch of rugby players who had all brought their kids with them. On the saturday night the kids were running wild around the tents, when we politely complained to the parents the following morning we were threatend. The instructor then offered to fight all of them himself. Not in an aggressive manner, more "ok, ready when you are". That was a real eye opener, I've never seen seven heavily built men back down so quickly in my life.
What also struck me was one of the instructors junior students, who had come along and had only been in systema for a few months and was about my size, however I have no doubt that he would have won in a fight, because he was pretty good in his own right. I have no doubt that he could defend himself which was reassuring because it showed me that the skills weren't just for high ranking martial artists and they could be picked up quite quickly.
Anyway you may have guessed by now I rather like Systema and were there a school within 100 miles of me would be studying it.
So to the guy who started the topic I'd say your lucky man go along and try it out and if your not sure about it on a practical level ask the instructor if you can just go flat out for a while. If their anything like mine was they'll be only too happy to oblige.
By the way, where are you based?

[CKD]

Nice first post. A lot of people here were looking for an opinion of someone studying mt and have studied systema as well ad you gave it to them. But can you tell me what the groundwork in systema is like?

[PghROSSgrl]

PghROSSgrl the only breathing I use in ROSS is deep abdominal breathing.

I pratcice silat breathing at 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. , but there are two kinds of breathing a light sitting breathing (with a posture like the yoga lotus) to prepare the body followed by stand up deep abdominal breathing accompanied by dynamic tension exercises (ROSS also use dynamic tensioning), this really hurts....

Krys;
Thank you! That is both informative and helpful, I didn't even realize that other MA's have breathing exercises too. I do like the ROSS deap abdominal breathing, as well as the very shallow breathing. Thanks again for your reply.

Desiree

[chris davis 200]

interesting insight into the way sytema trains the person for real fights and its comparison to WW2 combatives and their idea's of mindset etc. It is in responce to an article by Carl Cestari - a WW2 combatives teacher - the article is regarding knife confruntations.

some real gems of information here i think ...

The post is from the Russian Martial arts forum by a highly skilled systema Guy called Jim King who is one of Vlademir's top students.

I am hoping he doesnt mind me reproducing the post here but i feel it have some good points.

Carl Cestari is a proponent of a self-defense method based heavily upon WW2 Combatives. He is one of the icons over at a self-defense forum. They commonly hold everyone who does not partake in their brand of fighting is not in touch with reality. As with most others on their particular martial art/MMA forums, this group believes they are the pinnacle of reality fighting, and the efficacy of all other systems should be measured with their yardstick. If we are honest with ourselves, we too must admit, we do the same thing. What I find most interesting is how these groups easily dismiss most other fighting styles as ineffective—especially Systema—even though the teachers and practitioners of the "ineffective" styles have both extensive real experience and grounding what does work in real fights (Yes, plural...fights. Quite often, the argument used by naysayers is anyone can be lucky once, but how about consistently all the time. Dismissive nonsense!). The System does not hail from some flowery art where health and fitness is the primary goal to harmony. Devastating, brutal action is the heart of what we do. Just because our detractors say this is not so or point to clips where the training action is at half speed—and they decry fake training because we are not going at it full blast with all kinds of pads protecting the various parts of our body (As if this is the ultimate litmus test for knowing what is effective in a confrontation!?!)—does not mean we are not in tune with fighting in the real world. I get a charge out of individuals who train "violently" with the inanimate Spar Pro and Bob dummies. Somehow this training is real, while training with an interactive, living human being at any speed less than full tilt is fake. I can honestly say I have had MANY individuals come through my door with the same mentality where absolute aggression and hate for the opponent is necessary to survive and win in a fight. Most of these persons came to test the System, as they too have read the various forums out there. Ninety percent of the gunslingers, spectators, and students who come to my school are military fresh from Iraq or Afghanistan or have orders to go to deploy back within three to six months. Almost all of them claim to be versed in BJJ or some form of combatives (beyond the limited baseline training received in the military.). So far, those who have physically attempted to train have a different opinion when they leave than that which they possessed when they came in. For sure, the gunslingers now have personal experience that a person does not need to be emotionally attached with hatred for the opponent to destroy the attacker. In some cases, I have had to allow the other person to statically put me in some awkward position that most likely would not happen in a fight so they can see if I can work with them. Yeah, I know this is ridiculous, but sometimes we have to participate in absurd exercises to achieve a positive result. Call it a weakness. Without question, these gunslinger types were trying to inflict pain and humiliation on me, and they were definitely not willingly compliant (read " DELIBERATELY RESISTING"). Not one person has yet to say Vlad's half-speed teaching methods that he has inculcated me with over the last four and a half years were fake, too slow for the real world, or out of touch with reality. Oh sure, sideline martial artists have balked (This is what they do..talk, not train!), but those on the floor have a very different perspective.

Understanding the mindset of adrenaline fighting styles is mandatory to working with them. They require the individual to tap into the "fight-or-flight" response to survive a confrontation. Raw emotions are the energy for their action. They cite study after study detailing the body's various responses to stress, fear, panic, and danger. They highlight the gross motor takeover at the expense of fine motor skills when the faced with a threat. In truth, nothing they base their fighting styles upon is false. The biology is fact. However, these biological responses can all be short-circuited when the person does not "lose" control of himself. When no threat is perceived even though the danger is understood, the individual does not default to the fight or flight response, i.e., gross motor action only. The person who is not afraid either of confrontation or the opponent never undergoes the adrenaline spike. Initial breathing is crucial to this defusing. Those who then understand the power of the System as a delivery medium to generate a great deal of pain and brutal action at the opponent's expense can easily function without turning into a frenzied animal. Regretfully, trying to debate this with focused self-defense gurus is futile. Because they approach their conversations with the same meat-cleaver finesse as they conduct their training, the only way to make find common ground is to “talk” on the floor. This happens rarely as they do not frequent our haunts, and we do not headhunt on their turf. No benefit as they would not believe anyway (If we show the value of the System, we were the one exception to an otherwise ineffective style. If we are less than stellar in our work, then we are the shining example of the worthlessness of the entire system.). C'est la vie!

Carl Cestari does have some interesting stuff, but this material is hardly new or original. As I said before, he and his troop base their training upon WW2 combatives as fostered by Fairbairn, Sykes, and Applegate. I have the original combatives books as published since WW2. The material is very similar to the stuff you find in basic SMERSH, the NKVD manual, and some other Russian H2H texts. I have seen some of the video material and PSPs (their forum coined acronym "photographic scenario progression," e.g., pictures in sequence) posted on their self-defense forum (Ironically, one of my students commented to me how similar one of these PSPs looked to the work we did the previous night in training.). While the techniques of combatives are effective against a general audience, they do have some serious limitations against trained fighters. Much of what is listed as the basic arsenal is found in the System. Combatives is combatives. Our delivery medium is the fundamental difference. I believe it is inaccurate to say Carl Cestari does not know what he is talking about when it comes to techniques. He is quite skilled in what he does. Would he be effective against someone proficient in the System? Wow, one of those “my way is better than your way” scenarios. Too much room for pride and ego…the exact emotional baggage that will end a fight disastrously for the owner. One of the greatest strengths of the System is the ability to recognize, admire, and respect good movement for what it is even if we are not the person doing it. This does not mean the System does not possess the same good movement, it just means we have not discovered and owned that particular expression of movement within what we know of the System as of yet.

As to the need to tap into base negative emotions to survive and win a fight, these same people miscalculate and underestimate the power of having no attachment to the fight in the first place. When you are free from emotion, all things are possible without hesitation or reluctance. Those things that make us slow and clumsy—fear, regret, remorse, pride—are non-existent. Inflicting pain quickly and brutally even to the degree of violent death does not faze the fighter. Inner peace and balance allows an individual to step in and stay very close to fight. Simply, if it is your time, it is your time. Subsequent respect of movement makes action sharp and decisive. In the end, these other styles demand high emotional content to match that of the attacker because they emphasize and reinforce a person’s inner fears. The System walks the high road by being solidly grounded in a person’s inner peace. Very big difference.

Your thoughts on the content?

Cheers
chris

[stephen1712]

groundwork

As I said before my experience of Systema is based on a few seminars and I should not be taken as any kind of expert. Sadly groundfighting wasn't covered in any great detail so everything that follows should be taken with a pinch of salt.
That said I believe that the groundfighting would be similar to escapes for holds standing up. To relax the body and slip out of any hold on you at that moment, basically to go with it and escape. If you do BJJ (I don't) I believe they have something similar. I remember reading a piece by an American gentleman named James Williams who teaches Systema and is a friend of the Gracie brothers discribing a match between one of them and Ken Shamrock. Shamrock had Gracie's leg and so Gracie took all the tension out of it and just went with it. It struck me at the time I was reading it that it was a very Systema thing to do.
If you need a little more information than that I can only suggest going over to the Systema Uk website, outlining your situation and asking someone who trains regularly for more advice than I can give you. Their quite friendly once you get past the good natured ribbing.
All the best.

[Thai Bri]

Chris - interesting article, thanks! To be honest mate I've seen a few reports of non Systema people taking a seminar with them. To date I haven't seen anyone reporting being particlarly impressed.

I agree with what they say about the SDF board though. If you disagree with them you are banned as a trouble maker. They are small men who cannot face the possibility that they may still have lessons to learn. I don't think Cestari and his team post there any more.

Take a wander through their site. It isn't too long before the pack mentaility sets in and they jump on some por guy who tried to an express his own opinion. As a pack of course, with all the hangers on chipping in with "support". They are not men. Funnily enough they occasionally turn on their own. Its quite fun to watch.

Bottom line? They have big egos but small balls.

But I still have a hard time with Systema. Seeing clips of guys being "pushed" over without physical contact being made is never good for credibility in my view!

[chris davis 200]

But I still have a hard time with Systema. Seeing clips of guys being "pushed" over without physical contact being made is never good for credibility in my view!

Completely agree with you! such things should only be put out there after some hardcore real time work has been shown - so at least it is clear there is a basis for these abilities rather than just a real bad case of hero worship!

Regards
Chris

[CKD]

This article explains the no touch kos. http://www.systemauk.com/art11.htm Many people like Oleg Taktarov think highly of Systema.

[martin l]

Systema works for me

I have been training in the martial arts for a little over 5 years. I have done some Muay Thai and JKD and a lot of BJJ and Judo and taken a lot of seminars in different arts. When I first encountered Systema on video, I agree that it looked like a lot of crap. Although one of my friends told me stories about how good this Vladimir guy was supposed to be, I just couldn't find the money or the motivation to go to Toronto to find out and I only live a few hours away. When he finally came to Montreal for a seminar, I went to watch and was very, very impressed. Then I signed up at the Montreal area school to see what this was all about.

First off, they do a lot of exercises--a lot. Very big into conditioning. I don't know if this is true of all Systema schools, but the teacher in Montreal is crazy about work outs, which I like, but this is certainly not for everyone. The environment in the school is very good. Definitely some very tough guys, but not a bad attitude in the house. The atmosphere is very relaxed.

I was impressed enough to sign up for private lessons, so that I could really see what the art had to offer. The teacher (Kevin Secours) was able to take everything I could give him with a smile. Very gracious and generous and not afraid to show Systema's "functional" side. He hits like a mule, is very fast and he neutralized my ground game. In fact, his ground game was very, very good just from a technical perspective, but I know he also has a very strong Jujitsu background as well. He explained to me that Systema's groundwork focuses more on flow and movement rather than set positions. It doesn't go for submissions, although it uses similar setups and catches to Jujitsu and Sambo but then continues through them, blending breaks and wrenching actions with hitting and continuous motion. Very difficult. He explained to me that in grappling scenarios the Systema perspective is that you are first and foremost grappling with your own fears and he taught me a lot of kinetic exercises and stretches to identify my fears and help me work through it. I always thought I needed to improve my cardio or other aspects of my conditioning, but not I realize that I was often getting gassed because I was panicking. His techniques have doubled my effectivness already.

I agree that some of the clips I've seen on the net, particularly with knife techniques are a little sketchy, but he told me that they are really more training concepts designed to liberate your movement patterns. When I wanted to go faster and harder, he told me that slow training is better for learning and that fast training is used more to test what we know. He willingly went faster with me and his stuff did work very well.

I would definitely recommend trying this style out for yourself. Kevin tells me about how incredible Vladimir is, so now I have to try him out for myself. I definitely think that hard core traditionalists will have trouble with their learning method, no matter what the Systema guys think. I know a lot of people who find comfort in memorization and set technique and I think this would shake them out of their safety zone, but for people that want to understand how their own body works and to get in shape and learn very, very, good technique in a safe environment, I have never seen a better style. I'm hooked.

[Strepto]

I was thinking of starting Systema this year. I live in Quebec city but will probably travel once in a while to Montreal to take some lessons. From what you're telling in your post Kevin Secours is a great teacher. Thanks for the info, i will definitly take some private lessons with him this year

[martin l]

Systema in Quebec

I strongly recommend checking the Montreal school out. There are always guys coming in from Quebec, Ottawa and even Vermont to train with him and they always seem very glad that they did.

Also, he's bringing Vladimir to town on September 11th, so if ever you were going to make the trip to Montreal to train, that would probably be a pretty good day to do it. You can probably find out more on vladimir's web site, at www.russianmartialart.com. They have a listing of all of the schools in Canada there.

Let me know what you think.

[y masilov]

Montreal Systema

I have also trained at the Montreal school and would agree that it is a very good school. The school is quite small and there are no mats even though they do many takedowns and much groundwork, but this is not a commercial school. They are there to work out and have fun and the teacher is very generous. I have played Sambo and Wrestling for many years and am much bigger than Kevin, but he is very talented. He has changed the way I look at fighting, and helped me recover from a very bad knee injury I received in a car accident last year. I will be unable to train with Vladimir when he comes to Montreal, but I will go to Toronto to train with him directly soon.

I am very thankful Systema exists outside of Russia.

[Berserk001]

What makes systema a good style to practice?

[Strepto]

Also, he's bringing Vladimir to town on September 11th, so if ever you were going to make the trip to Montreal to train, that would probably be a pretty good day to do it. You can probably find out more on vladimir's web site, at www.russianmartialart.com. They have a listing of all of the schools in Canada there.

Let me know what you think.

Yeah I know, I'm going. Kevin Secours mailed me the package for the seminar, I should receive it today or tomorrow. I can't wait. From what I saw in many videos master Vasiliev is really good at what he does!

[y masilov]

There are many things that make Systema good in my view. First, it uses a different approach. There are no set techniques or forms like many other systems. Teaching occurs first through explanation of concepts or principles, then usually the teacher provides a demonstration of how these principles can apply, then the student is free to mix and match and interpret the concept their way. The teacher guides the student to a personal understanding. Many arts talk about using this type of approach, but Systema is one of the first ones that really does it. There is no ego or attitude. It is perfectly fine to question the teacher, even to doubt a technique. My teacher encourages this type of thinking. He never gets mad or insulted and he always shows me other things until I find something that works for me.

Systema also eliminates fear in its students. Every time you train you can either add fear or take it away. Their approach is to make the training environment very welcoming. People leave their egos at the door, so they can experiment with more powerful and dangerous technique very safely and without getting hurt. They have a lot of unique exercises. At first, many of them looked just very similar to more common exercises, but the little differences are what makes them work. All of the exercises are designed to build confidence in your own body, which has worked very well for me. They have taught me how to think and move like a smaller man. I am quite large (about 6' 3" and over 250 pounds) and I now realize that I used to be very intimidated by very fast, smaller opponents. Now I understand how to use my own body better, I feel more relaxed and faster. I feel healthier just walking down the street.

Systema also places a really strong emphasis on breathing in all of their exercises. I really didn't pay much attention to this at first, but now I understand how effective this method is. It is very simple and places a larger emphasis on a quick, sharp exhale to make room for the fresh air. They also have many exercises to teach you how to force when exhaling, inhaling, or even when you are unable to breathe, which is very different from anything I had seen.

All of the striking techniques are bases on correct biomechanics and body structure. There is no formal stance and power generation is very different. Many martial arts use a fixed center of gravity (below the belly button), but Systema uses what is called a "flying center" of gravity, that slides up and down between the lower center and the solar plexus. If you are standing normall, the center is low. If you lean forward and extend an arm, the center slides up, because the total length of the body increases. They always visualize their center. In grappling, they even view the center of gravity as being shared by the two fighters, which helps explain techniques and leverage in a very different way. I have always been more of a grappler and had never encountered this. Also, after seeing how much power the Systema students were able to generate when striking by using this method (even the smaller female students) I took a strong interest in adding these skills and I find their method very effective.

Also, there is a strong emphasis on creativity and adaptability that makes it such a strong system. There are many methods and martial arts that offer short cuts and quick self-defense training. Systema is more that this. It has taught me how to move my body much better and changed my perspective on my own potential. It has encouraged me to be more critical of what I do and to analyze how I move. Sometimes, we may be injuring ourselves just through bad habits, like poor posture or the way we walk or sit, but Systema teaches you how to identify these problems and fix them.

I very much enjoy their teaching approach. I have seen some of Master Vasiliev's videos and now that I understand the art, I can see that he is impressive and I enjoy the videos more than when I first saw them, but the most impressive footage I have seen of him is from a seminar he gave in Montreal. He is very confident and relaxed and also very funny. He adapts well even to large groups and challenges everyone at the same time, no matter what level they are at. These are things that I did not see in his other more professional videos, but I think this is what makes him great and what makes my own teacher very powerful. It is their teaching method more than their combat method that impresses me. When everything has been said, there are only so many ways to kick or punch. It is how we choose to learn and improve these skills that matter more.